Egyptians are not Arabs, they are Egyptians.

Modern Upper Egyptians

upper-egyptians

A strange title for a blog entry I know. But this is a result of a little nosing through the DNA studies available of modern Egypt, and some irritation at modern Egyptians being incessantly called ‘thieving Arabs’ by on-line Afrocentrists.

This is more focussed on the Egyptians around Luxor, where old upper Egypt was located. A recent DNA study by Cruciani that focused on the Y chromosome E-M78 revealed that it was ‘born’ in North East Africa , not East Africa as previously thought. This means, that an Egyptian with an m78 Y chromosome has had a male line ancestry reaching back to the Pleistocene inhabitants of Egypt; as far back as the Halfan culture about 24,000 years ago.

Southern Egyptians Y Chromomses are mainly native to Africa, both sub and supra Saharan. This makes a grand total of 80.3% definitively African non-Arab ancestry in the upper Egypt region. Y chromosomes possibly attributable to Arab males are very much in the minority in this area. A rough estimate (since no women invaded Egypt) is that about 5% or less of this population are from non dynastic Egyptian peoples, and not all of these would be Arabs.

Northern Egyptians are a bit more cosmopolitan in their ancestry  64.8% indigenous African. About 20% of the Y chrom0somes are near Eastern in origin, and 10.5 % are R Y chromosomes. However, some of these near eastern and European Y chromosomes show an ancient entry to Africa (G, K2, R1, R1b are 8,000 BP and older) and any historical contribution from foreign men is more likely to be in the 15% area. Divided by two (no recent female contribution to speak of). This makes non-dynastic Egyptian population around the 7% mark in Lower Egypt; and only some of this is Arab.

As for the maternal inheritance; this is more varied. From a study at Gurna (of modern upper Egyptians):

H 14.7%, I  5.9%, J   5.9%, L1a   11.7%, L1e   5.9%, L2a   2.9%, M1   17.6%, N1b   8.8%, T   5.9%, U   8.8%  U3   2.9%, U4   5.9% ,L3*(a)  5.9%, L3*(b)  2.9%, Other   2.9%.

Of these, the L haplotypes are typically sub Saharan (23.7%), M1 and U are ancient Eurasian, present at least 30,000 years and many of the other Eurasian haplotypes have been found in 12,000 year old bones in Morocco. The N an I  are possibly attributable to Arab ancestry, about 15% non-Arab in upper Egypt. But still, most of that would easily be attributable to the Neolithic input from Asia- and very little of this would be attributable to Arabs

To sum up, there doesn’t seem to be majority ‘Arab’ genetic component to the Egyptian DNA pool,  20% absolute maximum. And a lot of the non African DNA is traceable to the Neolithic farming expansion that swept across North Africa, so it would be a lot lower in reality.

In upper Egypt a maximum of 20% of the Y chromosomes are non African (the Mt DNA has been shown to be the same since dynastic times from Nubian mummy studies).. so how these people are supposed to have magically changed appearance in the past few thousand years with so little foreign input I’d like to know.

Egyptians are Egyptian, not Arab.

simplified-lucotte-colour

Very simplified Y chromosome information from Lucotte 2003.

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68 responses to “Egyptians are not Arabs, they are Egyptians.

  1. I have the same problem with people who call Palestinians Arabs. They’re no more Arab than are Egyptians. I’m afraid many people use the term ‘Arab’ as meaning anyone from anywhwere near the Middle east who speaks Arabic. It’s the same as calling many groups of Africans English or French.

  2. I agree with terryt. The broad label “Arabs” for the vast majority of people from the Middle East only exposes the ignorance and general lack of knowledge of most Westerners. The only “true Arabs” are from Saudi Arabia. Most Egyptians, Lebanese, Syrians, Libyans and even many Jordanians do not consider themselves Arabs.

    Also, good job Mathilda on the photos above. Although, the collage does not show all the respective physiognomies of the people of Upper Egypt, it does provide us a glimpse as to what many of them look like. No doubt, your selections are synonymous with your beliefs regarding 60% Eurasian content for the region.

  3. Hakat, the ancestry for the people in upper Egypt at this time is about 1/4 sub saharan, mostly North African for Y chromosomes and Eurasian for mt DNA.

    These are ALL the decent images I could trawl of people from the modern upper Egypt/Luxor area that showed a good view of the face. If a higher percentage look more African, they are being very camera shy. Do remember, this is peice about modern not ancient upper Egyptians.

    These are pretty typical of modern upper Egyptians. The blacker ones tend to be south of Aswan, in the lower Nubia area.

    • Matilda,

      If Egyptians are 84% or so African, then why does Zahi Hawass say 2007 interview, that Egyptians are not Africans and not Arabs? When I speak to some Egyptians they say the same thing. I am have less than 50% African blood in me, but I am considered African American.

      • mathilda37

        I think the average is 68% African on the Y chr, mainly Eurasian for maternal ancestry going back at least 12k.

        Rule one of Egyptology- never try to understand Zahi Hawass- that way lies madness.

    • *

      Berbers by the way, and Moors to, are mostly of Arab Semitic White heritage-that is why the presence of haplotype V – with up to 15% Black heritage-some have small amounts of Indo European Aryan White heritage in them to.

      Your comment is awaiting moderation.
      *

      naturescorner1 // August 28, 2009 at 7:11 pm | Reply

      Aminimum of 84% of Northern(Lowere) Egypt is ARAB SEMITIC WHITE- NOT a maximum of 20 %-please, correct your ERROR.

      naturescorner1 // November 28, 2009 at 8:10 pm | Reply

      Marwan if you are Egyptian(ancient and modern) you are either Arab Semitic White(ancient and modern Egyptians by ethnicity), or, Black Nubian and Egyptian by Nationality. Make up your mind. The Haplomarkers show ethnic Egyptians(ancient and modern are Arab Semitic White). Mathilda still has NOT corrected her error in including Haplotype V as a Black Haplomarker when it is an Arab Semitic White Haplomarker.

      Lucotte 2003-

      “Haplotypes V, XI, and IV are the main Y-chromosome-specific haplotypes in Egyptian males detected in the present study. ***Haplotype V is characteristic of Arab and Berber populations of North Africa*** (Lucotte et al., 2000) (EMPHASIS MINE)-same source as the statistics in yellow above.

      • Berbers by the way, and Moors to, are mostly of Arab Semitic White heritage-that is why the presence of haplotype V – with up to 15% Black heritage-some have small amounts of Indo European Aryan White heritage in them to.

        Now I feel I must giggle, as its been concluded several times that modern North Africans are mainly Arabzed Berbers, not Arabs.

        Don’t feel too bad NC, we all make mistakes.

  4. Oops about M81, didn’t look at the tree properly. You got the age wrong though, 5,600 years.

    I never really comment on the sub Saharan Y chromsomes. Once you go back past M78 it’s not very relevant to NA or West Asia, my area of interest.

    Also, I said the Halfan culture dated back 24k. As I’ve often point out, estimated ages on Y chr NEVER match known population movements, they always come out about 50% too young. I’d like to remind you these dates are just estimates too. E3b1 had to have migrated North With the Halfan culture about 22k ago, there’s no other way it could have made it into Europe.

    As a matter of fact it could be said that many Sub-Saharan’s dont have “Sub Saharan DNA.

    Quite right. Ethiopia is about 40% Eurasian.

    The fact that E3b1 has an East African parent says bugger all about it’s own point of origin and population affinities. You ONLY find it in populations with a lot of Eurasian ancestry, It originated in a largely Eurasian Mt DNA environment in North East Africa too. it always drags Eurasian derived M1 mt around with it.

    SO basically An East African Horn population migrated to Southern Egypt. Some groups migrated on[V13,V65,], but some groups migrated BACK into Horn East Africa

    Yes, M78 carriers which come from the Egypt area, with their M1 and U Eurasian derived wives.

  5. Mathilda I presume you’ve seen this:

    http://homepage.eircom.net/~ihdp/ihdp/e.jpg

  6. Ast, you’re reading the wrong paper!You want this one.
    http://wysinger.homestead.com/haplotypes_in_egypt.pdf

    The hg V in the Falasha paper isn’t the same one as here.If you read through some of Lucottes other papers, you’ll see this is just the namimg protocol he uses, giving them all Roman numerals. They represent different Y chomosomes in most studies.

    The description of the V frequencies here make it rather unmistakably M81. You’ll see this in other places, being called the ‘north African marker’ and this can really only apply to one Y chromosome. 68.9% among Moroccan Berbers is pretty unmistakable; only one Y chromosome is going to fit that profile, and that’s m81.

  7. Actually you may be right…(looks abashed) .. after reading the Keita paper they seem to have lumped a load in together. I’m so embarrased.

    Haplotype V is associated with the M35/215 subclade, as is XI (in Africa), and IV with the M2/PN1/M180 subclade, both of the YAP/M145/M213 cluster.

    Although, since they are all ‘E’s it’s probably a moot point for the item above, since it was pointing out they are non-Arabs. But thanks for the patience.

    Thank you for making me re-read that Keita paper.

    current inhabitants of the Nile valley should be understood as being in the main, although not wholly, descendants of the pre-neolithic regional inhabitants,

    Priceless.

    Sorry about comments not showing promptly. The spam filter sends anything with a link to the bin.

  8. Ms Mathilda the goal of the arab armies entering any country in the 7 th century was to convert its people not to arabize it . Theirs mission was accomplished in spreading Islam . Take as exemple Turkey,Iran,Indonesia… But the present-day arab countries,they had at that time a cultural emptiness that was fulfilled by the newcomers seen as the new masters after defeating the roman empire and local resistance.
    As for the appearance,I always been taken as an egyptian by egyptians themselves I met in my life ,so,I am an arab algerian from Irak descend.
    Be an Arab today is to have arab culture and arabic as your mother tongue not necessarily arabian origin.

  9. Mr(s) Terryt why your are so afraid that many people called us Arabs .This scientific blog is to find out the origin of people ,does not scare. If you denied us to belonging to this etnicity ,just call us Moslem (exception to arab christians) .As for Mr(s) Hakat Re ,you are lying by saying most of egyptians,jordanians,libyans,syrians do not consider themselves arabs.I am from algeria ,I have a big contact with my Arabs compatriotes from all over the nation and we always congratulate each other with <> wich means Brother and when we talk about the problems of our nation we always say We the Arabs, does not matter our origin.Period
    Most of americans are not native(INDIANS) of origin and they ‘re proud to be.NO objection
    Mr Sarkozy is not a franc(true french),but he consider himself french.Where is the problem?
    Be afraid of the west calling us Arabs has to do with racist ideology.
    The present is the status quo.

  10. The phylogeography of Y-chromosome haplogroups E (Hg E) and J (Hg J) was investigated in 12,400 subjects from
    29 populations, mainly from Europe and the Mediterranean area but also from Africa and Asia. The observed 501
    Hg E and 445 Hg J samples were subtyped using 36 binary markers and eight microsatellite loci. Spatial patterns
    reveal that (1) the two sister clades, J-M267 and J-M172, are distributed differentially within the Near East, North
    Africa, and Europe; (2) J-M267 was spread by two temporally distinct migratory episodes, the most recent one
    probably associated with the diffusion of Arab people; (3) E-M81 is typical of Berbers, and its presence in Iberia and
    Sicily is due to recent gene flow from North Africa; (4) J-M172(xM12) distribution is consistent with a Levantine/
    Anatolian dispersal route to southeastern Europe and may reflect the spread of Anatolian farmers; and (5) E-M78
    (for which microsatellite data suggest an eastern African origin) and, to a lesser extent, J-M12(M102) lineages
    would trace the subsequent diffusion of people from the southern Balkans to the west. A 7%–22% contribution
    of Y chromosomes from Greece to southern Italy was estimated by admixture analysis.
    To have more informations,visit:
    http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication/AJHG_2004_v7

    To Terryt and Hakat Re

  11. Pingback: Waleed Nassar » Egyptians Are Not Arab

  12. Pingback: Global Voices Online » Egypt: “Egyptians are not Arabs”

  13. From the cultural point of view, Egyptians are more accurately described as “Arabicized”; so too should most of the other peoples commonly referred to as Arabs. The only “true” Arabs are the Yemenis.

    Egypt had an indigenous population of some 10 million Copts when it was conquered by Amr ibn al-’As in the mid-seventh century. The Copts, who still constitute a large minority of modern Egypt, certainly were not Arabs – they had their own language and their own customs.

    The process of Arabicization started following the Muslim conquest. The Copts began to adopt the Arabic language, over the course of centuries. Some converted to Islam, partly because of persecution, and partly because they couldn’t afford the taxes levied against them by their new rulers.

  14. thanks for never chicken out to tell the truth, we specially copts are not arabs.

  15. To bastawisi
    Who cares! just try to not talk arabic and your are done. Do like me,I am algerian Arby,because of french language( colonial heritage) I moved to anglo saxon Canada to avoid speaking french.
    French means to me 130 years of persecution of algerian people by France.

  16. Mira from Palestine

    cultural emptiness?!!! wow , thats such an ignorant thing to say ..

    yes we can say very much the same about many modern Arab nations, that doesn’t mean that ARABISM as some call it only came with Islam, it came centuries before , Palestinians for example are also a mixture of many nations , semites immigrated thousands of years ago from the arab island and lived in various parts of wats now the arab world, this happened way before Islam.

  17. true…i consider myself as a coptic muslim…

  18. well i agree with edward said that when it comes to culture and nations trying to identify their own id and that which of other it’s a very complicated process that cannot be minimized in our paternal ancestors or our dna tests ….and in the light of this the test gives us a small (if not a minor) addition to the deep, complicated, tangled and controversial issue of our national id.

  19. True, I am Coptic (Egyptian) Christian and never considered myself as an Arab… and I am proud of my ancestry.

  20. Waleed Arafa

    If this article/research/blog proves anything it proves that Egyptians today who are mostly Muslims are not “Arab Immigrants” they’re Copts which does not neseccarily mean Christian, who had chosen willingly to become Muslims, not as MO up their is trying to indicate because of taxes or persecution…History proves that persecution has ever managed making Egyptians believe or continue to believe in something they did not really beleive in. I am from upper Egypt (from al Munshah – Suhag) and like most upper Egyptians can easily trace my geneology hundreds of years back, for we keep records…and I am willingly a Muslim today, no one forced me…so yes…I am a Coptic Muslim.

    Cheers!

  21. Salwa Elfekky

    I am not surprised about ur findings but if u apply same study on other nations u will have as sruprising findings. The world was mainly inhabited by migration from one part to another for diff. reasons. As for Arabs invading Egypt and other places surely they had a greater impact actually more than Romans and Greeks. Arabs trnsformed Egyptians from Christianity to Islam and from Coptic language to Arabic. We can easily say that by embracing Islam and arabic language Egyptians are culturally and emotionally Arabs. We could claim that we are above Arabs bec. of our historical background but we, like or not, associate ourselves with arabs and not africans.

  22. adham;
    there is nothing like Muslim Copts cuz Copts mean native egyptian and Muslims are not native egyptians, they are Arabs.

  23. To Bastawi , The true coptes are few in number because most of them embraced Islam following their leader who accepted to convert and gave his daughter Maria as a wife to the prophet Mohamed( peace upon Him),she is well known as Maria el cobtia in Islam ,most of the christians of today’s egypt are refugees who came from greece and Armenia during the Ottman califate .Islamic world was a safe heaven for many christians and jews who were prosecuted in their proper countries because of theirs believes. When the americas were found ,than the exodus change de cap.

    • Djilali djaber,

      Where did you read your history? from a stupid Islamic fundamentalist? Christians in Egypt are not refugees. That is completely false. Christianity has always been in Egypt since the time that Christ himself was in Egypt. Mark the Evangelist preached in Alexandria and is considered the first patriarch of the Alexandrian Church. It wasn’t until the Arab conquest that Egyptians started converting to Islam. By the 11th century, Egypt was 50% Christian and 50% Muslim. Even the Coptic language was still spoken until the 15th century. I suggest reading about your history before writing about it.

  24. Salwa Elfekky

    mr Bastawisi, Arbs immigrants or invaders could never outnumber Egyptians . the only explanation left for the majority of moslem population in Egypt is that the christians converted to Islam. As a result we could say that a majority of moslems in Egypt are descendants of Egyptian natives i.e. copts. But i totally agree with u that the term copt should not be used as we speak in Arabic and not in old Egyptian language.

  25. I’m so glad someone else has taken the time to clear up this matter. I don’t know what it is, but this issue of Ancient Egypt and race just seems to bring the stupid out of everyone, Black, white and even some Egyptians and Arabs.

    To me, the only significance the issue of race in Ancient Egypt has is that it overthrows the white supremacist view point that intelligence is linked to skin color. A theory that was created to justify European colonialism.

    Equally ridiculous is trying to carve the world’s populations into neat little boxes called races. While it is obvious that humans come in a variety of physical types, it is not possible to tell where one group ends and another begins. Egypt is one area in the world that is a perfect example of this. Egypt lies at a crossroads that has never been separate from its neighbors to the north or south and the DNA and appearance of the people reflects this. WHAT IS BLACK? How dark does one have to be to be Black? What combination of features do you have to have? Just look at a picture of Rosa Parks for example. In the United States she was classified as a negro. Yet the same people, both black and white in the US who would call Modern Egyptians “ARAB INVADERS”, would say the very same thing about Rosa Parks is you showed them a picture of her in a tarha and mandil. She could easily blend in. So what in reality is an Arab? What is a Negro? More importantly, who is making these rules and who gives them the right to do so? More important than that, WHY DO WE NEED TO PIGION HOLE PEOPLE LIKE THIS TO BEGIN WITH?

    • the white supremacist view point that intelligence is linked to skin color. A theory that was created to justify European colonialism

      Funny really- Jews and Japanese score higher than Europeans when tested.

  26. …jabber, the french language doesn’t have
    the blame, it is the implementers of policy
    in a dying nation, e.g., britain also, colonialism
    always precedes decay, it’s the only way a
    tottering, spoiled class system can survive,
    as vampires on the rest of the word.
    the french language itself is in decline,
    the usable vocabulary of its speakers
    is only 1/4 of what it used to be, that’s
    why the present french are such snots
    about their grand invalid, le idiome,
    but as spirit all language should be
    respected. watch what happens to
    english, they are next on the block,
    the tumbril is already taking it
    to the guillotine, but cheer up,
    they will all be preserved in their
    jars, for we have their original
    (D)NAuatl.

  27. i must say that maybe egyptians are not arabs but being arabic is much a concept more than being a race if u asked almost of the egyptians they will tell u that they r arabs not copts and they even will not say that they r (a moslim copts) but arabic moslim.and i know that because i am an egyptian!

  28. …origin is one thing. present catastrophy,
    whether in the form of pan-arabism, yahweh,
    or flagellated christ, is another. i am still haunted
    by oera linda(book) statement that egyptians
    were of the yellow race/oriental, which is
    quite possible given the eurasian circuit
    opened by nomads of deer culture 50k bc.
    the first religious pump and collection
    plate for gold and silver and iron appears
    to be the altai/altia(N)/altar mts. we go
    from deer to horse to sheep, the spontaneity
    of the nomad, following pasturing animals
    who are following weather, fodder food
    patterns makes everything possible as the
    eurasian populations link into motion, 50k bc.
    what’s west goes east, what’s east goes west
    when rain replaces snow. the finns settle
    at 8k bc, dog and pig are bred in compound
    in china at 9k bc, zatal huyuk at 7k bc,
    gobekli a fixed locus/worship area at
    11k bc, the gods are settling down, or
    should one say the goddess has come out
    of her cave and is sporting with her
    ad hoc skygod beau who promises to be
    the warp and weft religions we have today,
    their object a matrimony fertile enough
    to populate sodom and gomorrah with
    enough colored slaves to inflate the tire
    of public works so egypt will be possible.
    given the preceding millenial pop swirl,
    which i call the nomad religious epoch,
    a contradiction in terms as the fixed
    point is religion, the always,
    the same, the everyway/todavía(sp),
    the eternal spontaneity of the nomad,
    where time but not worship is excluded,
    one can only wait for post-edenic agriculture
    to assault the religious wanderer’s
    connexion with animal gods of sustenance=
    tonacatecuhtli(N)=lord of sustenance/
    tonalli(N)=soul=tonatiuh(N)=sun,
    by attacking our most intimate god,
    tlaltecuhtli(N)=the earthlord, not for
    nothing did the nivkhi/nepchipeua(N)=
    nipping chipping shipping people of
    the amur/sakhalin area, related to
    the ainu tree culture people, not for
    nothing did they consider it a sin
    to scratch and hoe the earth deity,
    as they wanted to stay the way they were,
    which is the object of all religions,
    like jello that does not want to return
    to colored water once set. at the same
    time, slowly working against the nomad
    age(every age works for its own
    demise)is the tonalamatl/book of souls,
    a bible of beasts and primordial phenomena,
    linked to venus/uentli(N)/venison culture,
    being worked out from 50k bc, a snapshot
    of days 7/8(deer/rabbit) at lagar velho,
    26k bc. if we get 2 calendric days buried there
    in portugal as neander is dying out of europe,
    then it must be in fuller form and in use to
    the east where the altar/altia(N)/altai mts.
    the extent to which religion is contemporary,
    then, now, before, after, is the measure of
    its gravity= cauitl(N)=time, it’s dross, it’s
    inability to live up to its name by rising/
    tleco(N)/legging up the te(m)ple/tepetl(N)
    steps/tepetl(N)=mountain, mountain,
    to the true service practitioners require
    for unity, the sitting and setting of our
    species on blue planet.
    until then we’ll be looking at loaves
    of white bread thinking they are smarter
    than integral(sp)=wheat/trigo(sp), or
    black bread because we are trapped
    within boundarys of moribund religions
    whose only wandering is to have
    forsaken timelessness and spontaneity
    of nomadic origin for the faithless presumption
    death is a fixed point with which they can cozzen the credulous, either for subsequent reward
    or salvation. there is no salvation, the future
    is now, the only when the divine has ever had.

  29. they are black mixed , ancient egyptians were truelly black

  30. israel cannan

    crap, the palistinians are invaders:
    200 years ego, the british have been saying that there is a lack of peaple in israel.
    in the 30s there were 600 000 arabs, today over 10 million!!!
    paint of a typical semith(second from right):
    http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/27/l_b2ff1c51de1e4b708a6f1b023466ec6d.jpg
    there is a “darker” version of the semith, but always lighter than the egyptians, and alweys with a “jewish” face.
    the eastern jews are the REAL palistinians, and look like the same as israelites.

  31. …it’s cemitta(N)=center look/itta(N), to
    examine someone from seed/cemill/tta=
    semilla(sp) forward. after gobekli, 11k bc,
    the semittas/cemitta/cemithualtin(N)=
    one family, lit. those from the same house
    (abraham is the common ancestor of arab
    and jew). ithualli(N)=patio in general, and
    threshing floor. the semites first task when
    they were united was to take charge of the
    wheat grain agriculture in the aftermath of gobekli, they worked family by family, the
    tribe connected by this one occupation,
    much like craft harrappans did in india,
    but much earlier. the story of eden marks
    this passage of the israeli-arab tribe to
    a people, one people united by harvest.
    they rose up with city building made possible
    by the slavery management of gobekli,
    bred in different cities, traded in wheat
    and goods, forming later tribes and guilds.

  32. I live in Egypt. Here changed to islam just Christian who have never read Bible-other nationalities. Others, local people who living here are not change,even under the pushing of islamists:here all the time advertisement of Koran on TV, everyone of muslim whant to make new muslim, but Christian here are very faithful,they will never do it.And they didnt do it before,maybe small percentage.So Christians here married to Christian,Muslim to Muslim. They cant be mixed.Till now we have cops but just 20% due to murders, infringing in their rights,and due to this emigration.Due to Islamic invasion hundreds of years ago till now by half occupied by arabs-muslim, less then half egyptian christian (coptic before muslim inv)

  33. If you are interested what’s happend now with egyptian Christian, you can read about distroyed churches in Cairo, murders of christian etc. But dont listen muslims who tries to promote islam and tell you about their’s true and that their perents are original coptic but they change religion because opened true… its just blah-blah. I think I even by eyeson the street now can understand who is egyptian and who is arab

  34. ummm…. im an Egyptian, and my entire family are egyptians, but we are descendants of Arabia… i consider myself as an Arab Egyptian….

    plus… Egyptians today are closest to be described as Arabs than say, Pharaohs, or copts, or wtv… ethnicly, egyptians are arabs, since their are other ethnicities, in Egypt, such as Nubians, Beja, Bedawi, Berbers… etc…

    denying the majority of egyptians being arabs, is ignorant.

    • denying the majority of egyptians being arabs, is ignorant

      They are cutluarlly Arab, biologically they are Egyptian. The DNA shows big differences between the two groups.

  35. I’ve been saying this for years, even our way of life is very different than Arabs…almost most egyptians i personally know have Turkish blood!

  36. Now, I’m an Arab, and I’m Syrian.

    You guys in the US are all non-native americans yet you are so “proud” of yourself and your so called country, after slaughtering the real natives.

    Oh and those arabs that consider themselves “nonarabs” are usually nonmuslim, im not saying all of them are that way, but they think that Arabs are just about islam, so Marianne, if you would like to leave, and become Obama’s cheerleader, the door is right there, and dont let it hit you in the back.

    ’nuff said

  37. hey everybody am an egyptian and i don’t like to be called an arab or anything like that . and and so many egyptians think we are just egyptians….thats why we call the people from saudi arabia and kuwait people from the arabic golf i mean ,we call them arabs ,like if theres alot of saudi arabians in egypt ,we say theres alot of arabs here. but we never call ourselves arabs ..maybe we do but only on tv or something , i guess it has to do with our pride or something. plus we look so different from the arabs we are much taller and our face figure is much different! we are just different! theres only one thing in common between us and arabs! 1st: we speak arabic. 2nd most of us are muslims….thats all i guess…but if u look at the difference between egyptians and arabs u gonna find lots and lots and lots of differences…like in the accent,outfits,figure,music,movies and lifestyle we r just different …. thanks :-)

  38. Marwan if you are Egyptian(ancient and modern) you are either Arab Semitic White(ancient and modern Egyptians by ethnicity), or, Black Nubian and Egyptian by Nationality. Make up your mind. The Haplomarkers show ethnic Egyptians(ancient and modern are Arab Semitic White). Mathilda still has NOT corrected her error in including Haplotype V as a Black Haplomarker when it is an Arab Semitic White Haplomarker.

    Lucotte 2003-

    “Haplotypes V, XI, and IV are the main Y-chromosome-specific haplotypes in Egyptian males detected in the present study. ***Haplotype V is characteristic of Arab and Berber populations of North Africa*** (Lucotte et al., 2000) (EMPHASIS MINE)-same source as the statistics in yellow above.

    • Mathilda still has NOT corrected her error in including Haplotype V as a Black Haplomarker when it is an Arab Semitic White Haplomarker

      Naturescorner, its an E Y chr native to north Africa and its not an error.

      • naturescorner1

        Mathilda-North Africa is Arab Semitic White-I quoted YOUR source out of your article:

        Lucotte 2003-

        “Haplotypes V, XI, and IV are the main Y-chromosome-specific haplotypes in Egyptian males detected in the present study. ***Haplotype V is characteristic of Arab and Berber populations of North Africa*** (Lucotte et al., 2000) (EMPHASIS MINE)-same source as the statistics in yellow above.

        Haplootype V,once again, IS NOT A Black Haplomarker. It is an Arab Semitic White Haplomarker, making your chart, FRAUDULENTLY SKEWED.IT sould be in the BLUE(NEAR EAST/MIDDLE EAST) – in case you did NOT UNDERSTAND-NORTH AFRICA IS A PART OF THE NEAR EAST/MIDDLE EAST- EGYPT IS CONSIDERED ARAB SEMITIC WHITE- Placing the ARAB SEMITIC WHITE HAPLOMARKER V WERE IT BELONGS(in the Blue, NOT YELLOW)-MAKES EGYPT 80% WHITE, NOT BLACK as you ERRONEOUSLY indicated-please, read your OWN source and DO CORRECT YOUR ERROR – Arabs are Caucasian, NOT Black.

      • Dear god NC, read the Keita write up.

        http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita6.pdf

        Haplotype V is found in very high frequencies
        in supra-Saharan countries and
        Mauretania (collective average, 55.0%) and
        in Ethiopia (average, 45.8% for reported
        groups). Its highest prevalence to date is in
        samples from specific populations: Ethiopian
        Falasha (60.5%) and Moroccan Berbers
        (68.9%). Haplotype V’s frequency is considerably
        lower in the Near East, and decreases
        from west (Lebanon, 16.7%) to east (Iraq,
        7.2%) (Table 2A). The appellation ‘‘Arabic’’
        for V is therefore misleading, because it suggests
        an origin external to Africa that is not
        supported by the evidence.

        The ‘Arab’ Y chr are African E Y chr native to North Africa, as was actually pointed out to me by a raving Afrocentrist. I did check this thorughly. Keita corrects the terminology’ Arab’, as he says its very common in black east Africans. I also have multiple studies of Egyptian Y chr that back this up. Now quit whining.

  39. …arab/arabaitan/arbeit(ger)/rabota(rus),
    (tl)a(r)apa(letra)=tlapa(N)=trabajo(sp)=
    aryan=a(i)l/ryani=aila=ally(E)-yani(N)=
    pilgrim, vagabond, from one side to another,
    =yauh(N)=to go.

  40. …tlapa table tramp
    t/lamp lamb lapp, ah,
    lapp’s are deer tribe so, yes, the
    larger denomination of arab comes from
    the even larger tlapa, earth painters, cavers,
    lamp is from tlapa,
    lamb, so they went
    deer to lamb as the
    mazyes/berber, were
    they with the mazyes? for tlapa
    is aplu/apollo’s
    table with tlapples.
    even(tl)able bible

  41. Mathilda, see for yourself-Haplotype V is an Arab Haplotype. The Ethiopians invaded Yemen(Arabs), the Arabs drove them off and invaded Ethiopia.So yes, their is Haplotype V is the Ethiopians(1/3 of present day Ethiopia is Arab). Jews to, have the Haplotype V marker, so this adds to the Black Ethiopian Jews:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3659/is_200606/ai_n17175647/

    http://dienekes.50webs.com/blog/archives/2003_02.html

    http://wysinger.homestead.com/haplotypes_in_egypt.pdf

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html

    Giggle, if you want to, but you are wrong.

    At least you could play fair, and, approve my comments(ALL) for debate-that is what this site is for-anyway, I have posted your error in other sites.

    • naturescorner, haplotype V is a widespread group of the E clade, not near Eastern in orign.

    • sigh..

      Natures corner, its called Arab in these papers, but its actually African in origin- as was rather pointed out by that Keita quote I pasted. You are wrong.

      Try looking up the other Y chr studies of Egypt where teh Y chr are named, and it becomes very clear the haplotype V is E, African not near eastern or Arab.

  42. Why is it limited to Ethiopians- because of the Ethiopic invasion of Yemen and then the backflow of Arab invasions of Ethiopia. Ethiopia’s Northern 1/3 is STILL Arab Semitic White- that easily explains the Haplotype V in their population rather than other Black African tribes(non existent)). You mustn’t forget the Jewish mix in that created the Black Ethiopians- the Jews are Semitic Whites to, and, also present the Haplotype V marker. Bothe Arabs and Jews have a mix of J1(older haplomarker and J2(younger haplomarker)- Arabs have more of the older J1 marker and Jews more of the j2 haplomarker , indicating Arabs are older than Jews, some even suggesting Jews are a branch off of the Arabs, so because of this, Haplomarker V is often called the Arab Haplomarker-no offence, but Lucotte carries the better credentials, with the greatest experience, and, is considered a better expert then Keita, whom appears devoid of the knowledge of the Black Ethiopian – Arab exchanges and of the Jewish imput. When the Ethiopians again became isolated from Arabs and Jews this haplomarker V snow balled in their populationand quite easily explains the high concentration in an isolated population. Keita’s statistics do not seem to compare with other statistics on the presence of Haplomarker V in Arabs- I will attempt to find these for you to.

    • For crying out loud NC, the haplotype V in the Lucotte paper are all PN2 derived E Y chr -read the Keita write up on it and compare it to other DNA studies of Egypt for comparison. I actually posted where Keita explains its an African Y chr not Arab Y in spite of Lucottes terminology- what is your problem? Its a mix of the m81, m78 and other E clades that Lucotte didn’t bother to differentiate-

      From another paper..
      Lower Egypt (0f 44 samples)

      1 A3b2*
      4 E3b3a
      12 E3b1
      2 E3b
      5 E3b2

      1 J2f1
      3 J2
      3 F
      4 J
      1 O
      1 K2
      4 R1
      1 R1a*
      2 P

      This illustration should clear it up.
      http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/y-chr-egypt.png

      And that is the highest incience of Arab J cy Chr in any study on that chart, and a lot of the J1/J2 in Egypt dates back to the Neolithic and earlier.
      and another paper

      3/92 = 3.3% A3b2-M13
      2/92 = 2.2% B2a1a-M152
      1/92 = 1.1% E-SRY4064(xE1a-M33, E2-M75, E1b1-P2)
      1/92 = 1.1% E1a-M33
      2/92 = 2.2% E1b1a-P1(xE1b1a7-M191)
      1/92 = 1.1% E1b1a7-M191
      8/92 = 8.7% E1b1b1-M35(xE1b1b1a-M78, E1b1b1b-M81)

      28/92 = 30.4% E1b1b1a-M78
      4/92 = 4.3% E1b1b1b-M81
      2/92 = 2.2% F-P14(xG-M201, H1-M52, I-P19, J-12f2, K-M9)
      2/92 = 2.2% G-M201
      1/92 = 1.1% I-P19
      21/92 = 22.8% J-12f2
      1/92 = 1.1% K-M9(xL-M20, M1-M4, N1-LLY22g, O-M175, P-P27, T-M70)
      7/92 = 7.6% T-M70
      1/92 = 1.1% R-M207(xR1-M173)
      2/92 = 2.2% R1-M173(xR1a1-SRY10831b, R1b1-P25)
      4/92 = 4.3% R1b1-P25(xR1b1b2-M269)
      1/92 = 1.1% R1b1b2-M269

      If you check this ‘Arab haplotype’ in other Luccotte papers on North Africa it turns out to be m81 (mainly) which is African in origin, not Arabic.

      FYI, haploptype V in one paper may not (and probably isn;t) the same haplotype V in another.

  43. Mathilda37, as I explained, Kieta did not mention anything of the Ethiopian(Black Africans) invasion of Yemen(Arab Semitic whites) and the reverse invasions, the Jewish input(also have the haplomarker V), and, 1/3 of Ethiopia(Northern portion) is Arab semitic White – alot of arab blood and some Jewsih blood, plus isolation, gives the Ethiopians the Arab haplomarker V- Keita makes NO mention of this- Lucotte is “THE” expert here, with greater credentials and respect than Kieta.What don’t you understand- produce other Black African tribes whom have the haplomarker V and whom have had NO/little contact with Arabs.

  44. “Haplotype V is found in very high frequencies
    in *****supra-Saharan***** countries- North Africa(Supra-Sahara) if you did not realize it, is Arab Semitic White. J1 and J2 are Semitic haplomarkers and DO NOT occur in Blacks-incidentally-Sudan’s Northern half, and Somalia’s Northern 1/3, are both arab semitic white populations.J1 is also often called an Arab haplomarker. J1(the older one) and J2(the younger one) occurs in both Jews and arabs, however, J1 is highest among Arabs and J2 is highest among Jews-many theorize Jews are an offshoot of arabs, especially, the West semitic people tribes. Haplomarkers F(Semites), J(Semites-1 & 2), L3(Semites), and V(Semites) are Haplomarkers taht set Semitic Whites apart from Indo european Aryan Whites makeing Semitic peoples, Semites . They only occur outside semitic peoples if others are of MIXED heritage, and, do not occur in any other ethnicity.

    • Natures corner- haplotype V is African E. Compre the frequencies in the DNA studies. Its got a Noth African origin, mainly, but it’s still African and not a Eurasian import.

      “The main haplotype observed in Egypt is haplotype V,
      with a global frequency of 39.4% in the 274 samples

      Haplotype V is characteristic of
      Arab and Berber populations of North Africa
      (Lucotte
      et al., 2000), where it defines a major similarity
      among coastal populations in a one-dimensional pattern:
      the frequency of haplotype V is 53.4% in Tunisia,
      56.7% in Algeria, and 57.9% in Morocco, reaching
      68.9% among Moroccan Berbers where it is in
      the wide majority; the frequency of haplotype V is
      44.7% in Libya, and was established to be 40.4% in
      a previously studied population of 52 males originating
      from the northern part of Egypt (Lucotte et al.,
      2000).”

      This is the Y chr E- it’s present in North African Arabs and Berbers as M81/m78 at exactly those percentages. It’s not an Arab marker, and its used in other papers to point out north African Arabs are actually Arabized Berbers

  45. to b e an arab you to trace your lineage to either Adnan or Qahtan. An Arab would know what tribe he belongs to.

  46. Africans are hamitic races = Egyptians,berbers,nubians etc etc and yes Norther Africans are not arabs! and will never be, just because they accepeted arabism doesnt mean they are arabs, for example… the persians accepted islam but never accepted arabism, Norther Africans accepted islam and accepted arabism even though many of us dont consider themselves arabs because we are not arabs! the Official language here in Egypt is arabic but the spoken language is modern egyptian theres nothing wrong with arabs, im just proud of what i am :)

  47. Nature's Corner

    Israphel

    Hamites, by most modern authorities, are Mulattos- half Black/half Arab Semitic White- i.e. – the late Anwar Sadat, Iman, snd, Lila Kebede. All had Arab Semitic White fathers/Black mothers- Moors and Berbers have 8-15% Black heritage and the rest Arab Semitic White or Arab Semitic White and Indo European Aryan White mix. Egypt is 65% Arab Semitic White, Sudan’s Northern half is Arab Semitic White and Ethiopia’s and Somalia’s , Northern one third is Arab Semitic White- mixed ethnicities give the people of these countries a more Caucasian look than genetic variation . Northern Africa(1/3) is Arab Semitic White, and, a part of the Arab Middle East.Genetic studies beg to differ with you. In Egypt, the Southern portion(Upper Egypt will have a more Black population because of the annexation of part of Nubia/Sudan/Kemit i 1521 B.C. as you move northwardit become mixed than when you get into the Northern portion of Egypt(Lower Egypt), it is more Arab Semitic White.Egyptians are Arab semitic White, Berbers are a mix of Black/Arab Semitic,and Indo european Aryan White, and Nubians are Black.

  48. Nature's Corner

    mathilda37

    Technically YOU are wrong – by your own error- Egypt is 85% Arab Semitic White i f you transfer Haplotype V from the Black classification to the White – you refuse to acknowledge that error.

    I suppose that is why YOU are not approving my coments- not to worry – I have NOTED your error in several other threads.

    • NC, I a not acknowledging an error because I am not in error. You are.

      Check the other Y chr studies, the haplotype V is E. That you can’t grasp this even with a reference to the Keita paper that clears this up is amazing. I suggest you read the ‘Egyptian DNA reference page’, where the other Y DNA studies make it abundantly clear that V is E3b. Read them properly and if you still can grasp you’ve been flogging a long dead horse there is no hope for you.

      http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/egyptian-y-dna-and-mt-dna-reference/

      It’s a summary of all the DNA studies. Let me again make clear, the haplotype V includes the berber m81, Egyptian m78 and other assorted E3b clades. They are native to North Africa, and are NOT Semitic markers.

      As dr Keita points out, but you apparently ignored…


      Given these findings, it is more accurate to call V “Horn-supra-saharan African,” not ‘Arabic;’ it is indigenous to Africa

      Like I said, I’m not in error, you are and I’ve repeatedly pointed you at the info to correct you, and I’mm now getting weary of it.

      And your comments haven’t cleared becasue I havent been blogging lately.

  49. Mathilda37
    Quit spreading your LIES – Egypt, the Ancient, and Modern Egyptians are ARAB SEMITIC WHITE – 65% of the population, then, and NOW – are you a mix of Black and White- Hafez KNOWS his ancestry and country BETTER than you, a NON Arab.YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR ERROR.Of course, I expect you will NOT post this as you have done in the PAST – so I shall addres YOUR ERROR IN MY OWN BLOG. A minute or to from yor IMPORTANT BLOG won’t hurt-you print everyone whom comes after me.

    • Natures corner/CN..

      I have show you repeatedly that haplotype V (Five in Roman numerals, not v the letter) is in fact E3b, a Y chr of African origin, I’ve even posted a dissection of the paper I’m quoting here that states that remarkably clearly. So far…. you have confused the ychr haplotype named V here for mtdna type V, and a different Y chr marked as V in a different study. You’ve also taken the attitude that you are right and the published professionals that have commented on V (E3b1) as African in origin are wrong.

      The reason a lot of your comments didn’t get posted was that I wouldn’t post your mad repetetive ramblings over and over, and partly because I was kind enough to delete the post where you though V was mtdna type V instead of the Ychr. On reflection maybe I shouldn’t have, it would have been a good example to everyone of your reading comprehension level.

      Clyde, lets not pretend that your reasons for this are anything less than crazyland. I have multiple ofther Y chr studies of Egyptians that make it abundantly clear that V is E3b, and you won’t find a single published paper to back your claims for V being Semitic in origin. Why are you so hot for it to be Semtic? I get the idea that you think African means black African. If that’s your issue, it mean nothing of the sort, its a North East African Y chr.

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