Mummies and mummy hair from ancient Egypt.

Warning! This post contains a lot of images of dead people. I’ve edited out the scarier ones, but it’s not for the squeamish.

Fairly recently, a very well qualified lady called Joann Fletcher carried out a very thorough study of just about all the mummy hair found in Egyptian tombs. In an interview she said..

As the ancient nits on their tiny-toothed combs will attest, real Egyptians were plagued by infestations of scalp-biting bugs. Real Egyptians cropped their curls and even shaved their heads for the sake of hygiene: specifically, to remove the habitat of lice. And quite clearly, they also loved elaborate hairstyles, and went to great lengths to adorn themselves with wigs, false braids and hair extensions.”

“Quite often, the more elaborate and ornate styles were worn by men.” The shaven-headed bodies are not always men, as some would suspect. Ancient Egyptians didn’t use hair length to distinguish gender.”

“Nor was the practice of creating fancy ‘dos restricted to elites. In excavations of manual laborers, we found elaborate styles that couldn’t be created by the wearer alone; amazingly elaborate hairstyles.”

Hair is invaluable in the study of general day-to-day living conditions, as well as supplying information on diet and disease. A cursory examination of its surface structure can provide a certain amount of information on general health, while more detailed analysis of the elemental hair concentrations can help to establish dietary intake, revealing traces of any nutritional deficiencies and/or diseases.

To begin with the most obvious factor, hair can be looked at simply in terms of its style, which may indicate the way it had been dressed during the funerary process, or, alternatively, how an individual had chosen to wear it in life. However, it is most important to bear in mind that both men and women (in ancient Egypt) adopted a wide range of hair styles, ranging from a shaven head to long flowing locks. Many an archaeologist has failed to realize that gender cannot be determined on hair length alone. This failure has resulted in some rather curious conclusions, comparable to the way in which an individual is automatically assumed to have held religious office simply on the grounds of having a shaven head!

In addition to its style, the color, texture, type, and general condition of the hair can also be examined. Hair color is a fascinating study in itself, and the wide range of shades portrayed in Egyptian art does, to a large extent, reflect the diverse range found in reality. The most common hair color then, as now, was a very dark brown, almost black color, although natural auburn and even (rather surprisingly) blonde hair are also to be found. With their great fondness for elaboration, the Egyptians’ skillful use of dyes has produced yet further shades for us to study, analysis showing many to be various forms of henna, which even an aged Rameses II had used regularly to rejuvenate his white hair.

The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the site were cynotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard through dynastic times . . .
Close inspection revealed that the natural hair (from the grave of a woman), of slightly more than shoulder-length, had been augmented with a considerable number of artificial lengths of false hair, very reminiscent of modern dreadlocks, meticulously worked into the natural hair to create an imposing high coiffure. The complex styling techniques made it clear that her particular hairstyle was the result of many hours of careful work carried out by someone other than herself. This particular discovery is therefore extremely significant as it is the earliest evidence for the use of false hair in Egypt (if not the whole of the ancient world), predating previous examples by at least 500 years.

And, if this wasn’t sufficient, the same lady also provided us with the earliest evidence for the use of hair dye. Indepth examination showed a contrast between the auburn cast of her dark brown hair and a smaller number of unpigmented white strands of hair associated with the aging process. The unpigmented hair had been turned the bright orange color typical of henna, a vegetable dye made from the powdered leaves of the shrub Lawsonia inermis. This shrub grows yet in the area and is still used for the same purpose by the local population, who kindly showed us where the best henna bushes were to be found

Although most of the hair found is the natural dark brown color, natural red hair was also discovered in association with male Burial No. 79, his hair originally falling in a wavy style ending in small ringlet-type open-center curls. Together with other burials, this reveals the great attention paid to appearance, the hair obviously of great importance to both men and women alike. There were clearly a great range of styles by this early date, from extremely short crops little more than I cm long as noted in Burial No. 76 (a female of c.25-30 years) to longer styles, as demonstrated by the large quantity of dark brown wavy hair set in partially twisted lengths recovered intact in association with Burial No. 91. Although the hair itself was discovered completely detached from the skull, it was possible to determine that it would originally have been set at shoulder length.

The best preserved hair, however, was found in the well padded Burial No. 85 (nicknamed Paddy), a female of c.20-25 years of age. Careful removal of the upper layers of matting and linen pads allowed the hair to be preserved intact on the head, particularly the delicate free-hanging hair ends around the shoulder area that give the most accurate idea of the original hair length. Further study back in the lab revealed an original shoulder length style of natural waves, extending c.22 cm from the crown, with a left side parting and an asymmetrical fringe made up of S-shape curls bordering the eyes. In addition to the excellent preservation of Paddy’s cranial hair, her right eyebrow had also survived intact beneath the layers of protective wrappings,

Further facial hair recovered in association with the redheaded man in Burial No. 79 appears to have been cut with a sharp blade, while analysis of one mass of hair discovered last season proved to be an almost complete beard, possibly the oldest surviving example yet found! Body hair was also found during both seasons, including underarm and pubic hair.

For the complete J Fletcher article on mummy hair go here

So I’ve decided to put a few images of mummy hair up for inspection. Firts of all Gingers hair… I shall try to post a better close up the next time I visit the BM.

He has sandy coloured lightly curly hair. SInce he was buried in the sand it is quite possible his hair has lightened somewhat.

You can get a decent look at Ramses II hair here. The L’Oreal institite plucked out one of hairs to examine the roots, and found it to be naturallyauburn when he was younger (even grey hair retains pigment in the roots). It was hennaed in his old age to match the colour of his youth. He is descibed as having cynotrichous wavy Caucasian red hair.

These are the mummies of Tuya and Yuya. The gold hair colour is as a result of the mummification process used, but you can clearly see they both have straight/wavy hair.

Queen Hatshetsut, again very fine wavy hair. The colour is probably due to henna on grey hair

This is ‘the elder lady’. As can be easily seen she has long slightly curly fine hair.

This is the Nubian prince Maiherpri, and the Lady Rai, both with more Afro hair. Maiherpri’s hair is actually a naturalistic wig

And here are some cropped images of mummy hair from the Cairo museum mummy catalog. I’m afraid names are a bit hit and miss, as they are named in French on the pages.

Saqnunri  (hair only) and Queen Anhapu. A close up shows that although her hair is very thick and tightly braided, it seem to be mostly wavy where it’s loose. It is mostly hair peices woven into hair own hair and tied with fine strings.

Nofretari (complete with overbite) also with an ornately braided hair. It seems to be interwoven with braided extensions, and the slight peice of her own scalp hair that can can be seen seems slighlty curly naturally.

This is Amosis and Hontimihu. The first has rather curly hair, The second has wavy hair.

Hontempet and wig. This mummy’s own hair appears to be straight, but she has a an impressively curly wig. This is one of the few mummies where you can clearly see the lighter skin colour in contrast to her hair colour. There’s a good view of the wig with its long curls

Sitkamos, with loosely curly hair, and again a good definition between skin and hair colour. Beside her is the hair of Thutmosis II, again curly/wavy.

Unknown male, with fairly straight hair. Thutmosis IV, very fine light wavy hair. It’s not seen from this view, but the mummy has a comb over to hide it’s bald crown.

Hair on a skull (the rest is a bit grim). Straight as a ruler, and fairly light coloured.

Unknown woman D, with very ornately coiffed curly hair of a lighter colour. Then Queen Nomit, with plentiful braids on her wig.

Queen Honitayu? wearing a very fussy wig. Cropped detail of a queen with tight black African curls.

The princess Nsikhonsu, with long wavy brown hair. A young prince with a ‘child lock’ of hair, which appears to be brown not black, probably a juvenille trait. 

Unknown mummies, the first from the British museum morgue, one from the Hancock museum. The first is a woman from about 700 BC, and she has dead straight hair, probably hennaed. The second male head from 600 BC has short wavy fair hair.

These are two mummies from Egypt, currently in Australia. The red colour is thought to be in part due to resin, but upon close examination the head with a lot of hair appears to have naturally fair or light auburn straight hair.

Another mummy head from 2000 BC. Again fine straight hair. The second head seems to have straight hennaed hair thats been heavily braided.

This head is currently in Naples. It has long slightly wavy brown hair.

There are several studies of mummy hair, they’ve all concluded mostly European with some African influence. Even Nubian hair studies seem to be half Eurasian in the North, the same as modern Nubians.

For anyone curious, I’ve a page on racial differences in hair . It’s pretty easy to tell African and caucasian hair type apart by the shape of the cross section, colour pigment distribution and other factors. The oldest study of the Badarians ( Southern predynastic) by Eugen Strouhal concluded the hair was a mix of European and African, with overweight to the European. It seems to work well for the FBI, at any rate.

The hair differs in the upper and lower Kingdom, with the Lower Kingdom showing much less African influence than The Upper Kingdom, the same as modern Egypt.

Mummy wigs

And some images of Egyptian wigs to finish the item off. Some of these  wigs were made of wool, and not human hair. The last one is a hair weave from a mummy made form the lady’s own hair. Apparently she had it cut off and woven back in again later on. It’s also coloured with henna. She seems to have had fine straight hair, proabaly a dark brown naturally.

The bust here is of Meritamun, Nefertiti’s daughter, wearing a ‘Nubian’ style wig made up of of very short tightly woven and curled braids of hair. This came into fashion about the time of Nefertiti and is seen frequently on the Amerna reliefs.

 

Edit to post..

To the Afrocentrists who are spamming this entry with outraged comments along the line of  ‘you don’t understand African diversity’,  ‘Malcolm X had red hair’, ‘some Africans have Caucasian hair,’ and ‘you’ve never been to Africa’…

The average black American is about 1/5 European, which explains why black Americans occasionally crop up with blue eyes and ginger hair (although Malcolm X only went reddish in summer, not a proper ginger).

The same goes for Caucasian textured hair in Africans. The anthropologists who’ve studied the hair came to the conclusions of mostly Caucasian (Fletcher) to almost half negroid (Eugene Strouhal called it sterotypically mulatto) of the Southern oldest samples, the Badarians. Afrocentrists please note, those Strouhal and Keita studies do not include Northern Egyptians in any way. That Strouhal study is badly misquoted from in the Keita study of Badarian crania: he claimed Strouhal observed the hair to be 80% negroid, but the Strouhal study itself says no such thing, and makes it quite clear that the Southern Egyptians were of mixed ancestry. The Keita study this quote is from even states that the North Egyptian crania are different to the Southern, a fact often ignored once the words ‘80% negroid’ are spotted. Also, try reading the other Keita work properly, it places Caucasians all over North Africa from the Oranian paleolithic onwards.

Curiously, these hair studies match the current Egyptian population, nearly half negroid at the South, Caucasian to the North. Coincidence or what?

And yes, some Africans have ‘typically Caucasian’ hair, but they are very uncommon. Lets just say the last time I was in Kenya it was Afro all the way, and the large number of Somalis I saw there didn’t show much difference either. Caucasian hair is only seen occasionally in populations with Eurasian ancestry, like the Ethiopians, Somalis and other populations. This is also a quirk from that Keita paper you are all so busy quoting… the populations Keita gives as examples of ‘all African’ diversity have Eurasian ancestry ranging from 13% to 40%. Anyone wanting to prove otherwise, send me a link to a crowd scene of black Africans showing mostly caucasian hair.

The only African populations to display a majority of Caucasian hair are Caucasian populations. Get over it. Again, if you feel you can prove different send me a link to a crowd scene with multiple Caucasian haired Africans (it doesn’t have to be straight, most Caucasian hair is curly to wavy).

I would also like to comment that Negroid hair doesn’t magically transform into typically Caucasian hair as a result of the mummification process, as is often claimed. ALL the anthropologists that examined the hair have described the hair as Caucasian overall; you’ll just have to assume that a bunch of highly trained professionals might actually know what they are talking about.

And finally, the comments on this board have to be approved by me to be posted up. You can keep spamming me with the same brainlessly parroted/abusive crap, but it won’t get through so you may as well save yourself the effort. Intelligent comments and arguments do get through, so if you want to argue with me try to be original and polite.

101 responses to “Mummies and mummy hair from ancient Egypt.

  1. “By the individual analysis of nasal measurements and indices of the first Badarian series in comparison with the mixed Europoid-Negroid series from Wadi Qitna in Nubia (fourth-fifth century AD), with the Europoid series from Manfalout in Upper Egypt (Ptolemaic period) and with a series of recent Nilotes, I came to the conclusion that the distribution of the Badarian skulls extends from the Europoid to the Negroid range.”

    “Of the total 117 skulls, 15 were found to be markedly Europoid, 9 of these were of the gracile Mediterranean type, 6 were of very robust structure reminiscent of the North African Cromagnon type. Eight skulls were clearly Negroid… We may conclude that the share of both components was nearly the same, with some overweight to the Europoid side.”

    “In some of the Badarian crania hair was preserved, thanks to good conditions in the desert sand. In the first series, according to the descriptions of the excavators, they were curly in 6 cases, wavy in 33 cases and straight in 10 cases. They were black in 16 samples, dark brown in 11, brown in 12, light brown in 1 and grey in 11 cases.”

    The Strouhal study that Keita manfully misrepresented. The African populations Keita names as having hair like this occasionally all have a lot of Caucasian admixture, surprise surprise (13% Fulani, 15% Somali, 40% Ethiopians) Sterotypically mulatto populations, in other words.

    Keita’s work has been shown be be a bit suspect on a couple of occasions

  2. Very interesting blog. This is the first time I’ve been able to view mummies with such detail of the hair online. The Egyptians then made up probably what the Egyptian population is now. A mixture of North and South Egyptian Africans. But unfortunately anthropological research such as this will only help fuel the idea that superiority and inferiority of certain ethnic people is justifiable. Though I know that is not the aim or anthropological research but those with ill intentions, will use it for their own agenda.

    These two links are pretty interesting I thought I’d post them.

    http://www.forumcityusa.com/viewtopic.php?t=184&mforum=africa

    http://wysinger.homestead.com/bisharinomads.html

    We still have much to discover in our past.

  3. The Bishari would be about 50% Caucasoid in ancestry; they are from Northern Sudan/Southern Egypt. They have a Hamitic orgin, see links.
    https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/y-chromosome-study-of-sudanese-men/
    http://www.goredsea.com/en_magazine-archivebyissues-article-gebelelba-magazinearticle.aspx?monthid=july2002
    http://www.egyptheritage.com/Galleries/Bishari/GalPeopleBashari.html

    It’s always ‘negroid’ groups with a lot of Eurasian ancestry that get proposed as black Egyptians. You then don’t get to see their average hair in the selected images, just the minority that show up with near Caucasian hair.

    Egyptians had overwhelmingly Caucasoid hair (I’ve a few studies on that the all conclude the hair is mainly Caucasian and a match for modern mediterranean population). No black African population fits that description at all. You only find Caucasian hair in a population with Caucasian ancestry, and it’s a good percentage match for the amount of caucasian ancestry in the population; which indicates it’s not an ‘African origin’ mutation, same as blond/red/brown hair.

  4. Mathilda, why am I getting the impression that you are somewhat obsessed with promoting theories of a prodominant “White” Caucasoid presence in ancient Egypt and minimizing the simple diversity of that civilizaiton. Before I continue, I will remind you that I am a champion of diversity and favour the respect that is commanded in terms of talks on these subjects.

    Often you seem very “one-sided” for the cause of the great “White Race” yet, at other times you yield to more “respectable commentary in your dialog. I must admit that I am confused as to what position you take on these issues. I have found myself agreeing with many of your statments (which seem at first to promote the true diversity of Northeast Africa) yet other times, you appear to be posturing for White Nationalist organizations(?) Very confusing indeed.

    I’m not attacking you dear, I’m just making honest observations… You’ve made reference to the Bishari being “about 50% Caucasoid in ancestry” and even posted a link with photos of these beautiful people. However, (imo) no one in their right mind would equate them upon first glance with being Caucasoid at all. And if it is “science” that would prove otherwise, then perhaps we should consider the sources for such science and their motives and objectives. Just for laughs, why is it always 50% Caucasoid with you and not 50% Negroid? It’s ok to say 50% Negroid you know (winks). It wouldn’t hurt your argument, would it?

    Looking at the broader scope for what just might dredge up the truth in all this anthropological talk, what do you call the offspring of the purest black skinned African and the fairest skinned Northern European? It is my understanding that (to those who at least know of the parents’ races) the child is called “multiracial” or “bi-racial.” But, since there is no way to accurately determine to what degree or “percentage” the child is upon visual (or biological) analysis, the child is most likely considered “Black” not 40% Caucasoid as you have called ancient Nubians and not 50% Caucasoid as you have deemed the Bishari.

    I’m only bringing all this up because of my hatred for this “concept of race” which has forced our minds in ignorance to EXCLUDE certain members of the human family of their rightful place in history (in their own homelands, might I add). You know me NOT to be an Afrocentrist as I despise to term. So, please don’t go there. I just want to make you more aware of how you come off with regards to certain people of African descent. -HakatRe

  5. Weez built da pyramids un sheet dawg!

    LOL, why haven’t they created anything since?

    I suspect that Egypt was like America (or South Africa, or Haiti, or…), and that The Pyramids were designed by the light-skinned humans who had migrated there. I further suspect that, like in America, negroids were introduced into this great civilization as slaves, and later given freedom and eventually power (for whatever twisted reason.) The negroids’ rise to power led to the fall of Egypt, just as it’s led to the fall of many an American inner-city.

    What humans build, negroids destroy… it’s a simple as that.

    …And some people want to see a negroid in The White House?! WTF?!

    Mathilda,

    I would have to completely concur with Hakat Re’s comments. You don’t want “Afrocentrists” posting to your site and you carefully preclude statements from “Afrocentrists” from appearing. But you certainly don’t mind “Eurocentric” and white racist statements like the ones above appearing on your site.

    If you are for complete fairness, then, indeed, you should not have allowed comments like the ones I’ve copied in this post to appear. Not only are the statements not scholarly, but they are highly inaccurate and biased.

    I had read your original post with great interest and could somewhat overlook your tendency to describe the populations from a “Caucasoid” perspective. But your allowing these posts makes me now suspect of the way you present your research. I wonder if there’s a bias in your representation.

    I do find all of the emphasis and focus on race to be extremely interesting and simultaneously perplexing. I am not an Egyptologist or an anthropologist. However, I love Egyptian history. I have always seen scholars describe Egyptians as being, well, Egyptians – neither “negroid” or “caucasoid”. I have also often heard anthropologists state that there is “no such thing as race”.

    Perhaps this is something we will never know.

  6. The ‘personally approving every single comment’ was only brought in about two months ago after I was being spammed by one very nasty sort.

    Prior to that, as long as the comment didn’t included links and registered bad language, it just got posted (if you had commented before and been approved once, the standard WordPress system).

    I think ‘sheet’ doesn’t register on the standard language filter.

    I’ve cleaned the ones you posted out, as well as a few other bits where I and other people were name calling. If you spot any others, paste them in so I can find them.

    I’d like to add, that the only anthropologist Afrocentrics ever quote (Keita, and very selectively too) has outright said that modern Egyptians are mostly decended from the pre-Neolithic inhabitants of Egypt.

  7. I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed this blog. I had never taken a very in depth look at the hair of Egyptian mummies, and found your examples unbiased and fascinating. Keep posting these, they are great, I’m really enjoying reading them. Also, don’t let the afro-centrists get to you, I’ve encountered the same type of jargon when making arguments on other websites/forums, I guess if you don’t think Egyptians were black, even if it’s based on relevant anthropological evidence, then you’re a racist. Keep posting, your blogs are great!

  8. You are a racist because you hurt my sensitive feelings with your analysis and data. Shame on you, you must stop posting this information on your website and I read it, I get emotional and I poopoo my diapee.

  9. Arrgh! I don’t exactly believe in race, because what we call race is undoubtedly the result of some sort of genetic bottleneck that lasted long enough for some genes to go extinct in that particular population. And yet I don’t know any other way to express what we call race.

    Last year I was invited to a June ‘Teenth celebration and didn’t go, because at that time I thought I was 100% white and knew I was descended from slave-owners. This year I’ll go, because I know my great-grandmother, whom I remember well, was born a slave in Georgia in 1862. She was 1/4 black and succeeded in “passing,” to the great advantage of her descendants.

    It is certainly true that the Egyptians were slave-owners, though not to the extent that many people think. It is equally true that their slaves were of whatever race or ethnic background they had been fighting with most recently; a black person was just as likely to be royal or noble as he was to be a slave. He might also be native Egyptian, like the slave girl Hagar whom pharaoh gave to Sarah.

    The ancient Egyptians, so far as I have been able to discover, simply paid no attention to race. I have seen a statue of Queen Tiye wearing an Afro wig that made her look totally black, and I was stunned to learn that the mummies of her parents were those of mainly white people with light hair, and that the lock of her hair found in Tutankhamun’s tomb was auburn.

    • I was stunned to learn that the mummies of her parents were those of mainly white people with light hair

      Quite true, her dad isn’t even believed to be Egyptian, and is definitely quite pasty looking. There’s a vid of her somewhere on this blog and you can see that he hair is still aubrun- I suspect it’s hennaed though.

  10. Black black black

    They where black black black, becuase thye called thme self black.. Why should they wear Black hair (Wig)??????????????????????

  11. They called themselves people with black hair. The Sumerians also called themselves people with black hair. This seems to indicate that there were people with other colors of hair in the immediate vicinity. This comports with what we see in the mummies. They called their land where they lived “the black land” because the fertile soil was black; they called the desert “the red land.” But people with black hair living in a black land does not add up to black people.

    • This seems to indicate that there were people with other colors of hair in the immediate vicinity

      I typed almost the exact some argument out a couple of years ago. Great Minds.

  12. I think this much more telling in examining our current society than anything related to the ancient Egyptians. I think Wingate is right, based on much of what I’ve read (and I know that isn’t everything), how we talk about and define race is very recent. So we’re applying criteria to a people that isn’t very accurate from the beginning. It’s like talking about why inner city youth don’t listen to bluegrass – the assumption that they’re actively not listening to it is wrong from the beginning.

    As someone who is identifiably “black”, I’m also at least 25% white, yet “black” is how this society defines me. Yet I have been in countries where I am more clearly defined as “American”. So one could say that Americans are black and be right, but you could also say Americans were white and be just as right. The truth of the matter is, people of different cultures, races, nations, have been mixing for thousands of years.

    I’m not willing to say that I’ve seen anything that shows the type of racial classifications we use today as being used by people then. So no, they wouldn’t have called themselves black, but they also wouldn’t have called themselves white. In fact, the use of “black” wigs seems to imply that the line as we know it was crossed at least in terms of fashion. And honestly, pre-colonial time (well, even now), calling a north African or middle eastern person “white” would not be common.

    I think the notion of “black” and “white” is also fairly limiting. I mean, is it possible that a people exist(ed) that don’t fit either modern description? I just think the racial premise is wrong from the beginning.

  13. After the conquest of Egypt by Alexander, under the Ptolemies, crossbreeding between white Greeks and black Egyptians flourished. “Nowhere was Dionysus more favored, nowhere was he worshiped more adoringly and more elaborately than by the Ptolemies, who recognized his cult as an especially effective means of promoting the assimilation of the conquering Greeks and their fusion with the native Egyptians.” {Endnote 15: J. J. Bachofen, Pages choisies par Adrien Turel, “Du Regne de la mere au patriarcat.” Paris: F. Alcan, 1938, p. 89.}

    These facts prove that if the Egyptian people had originally been white, it might well have remained so. If Herodotus found it still black after so much crossbreeding, it must have been basic black at the start.

    Before examining the contradictions circulating in the modern era and resulting from attempts to prove at any price that the Egyptians were Whites, let us note the comments of Count Constantin de Volney (1757-1820). After being imbued with all the prejudices we have just mentioned with regard to the Negro, Volney had gone to Egypt between 1783 and 1785, he reported the Egyptian Race is the very race that had produced the Pharaohs: the Copts (p. 27).

    “All have a bloated face, puffed up eyes, flat nose, and thick lips; in a word, the true face of the mulatto. I was tempted to attribute it to the climate, but when I visited the Sphinx; its appearance gave me the key to the riddle. On seeing that head, typically Negro in all its features, I remembered the remarkable passage where Herodotus says: “As for me, I judge the Colchians to be a colony of the Egyptians because, like them, they are black with woolly hair. …” We can see how their blood, mixed for several centuries with that of the Romans and Greeks, must have lost the intensity of its original color, while retaining nonetheless the imprint of its original mold. We can even state as a general principle that the face is a kind of monument able, in many cases, to attest or shed light on historical evidence on the origins of peoples. {End quote}

    • FYI Gary.. No anthropological study has ever claimed that modern Egyptians are essentially any different to ancinet, somthing the DNA studies and artwork all agree with.

      You are extremely selective with your historical quotes. And apparently don’t know that black Africans were uniformly referred to as Ethiopians, a word never used for Egyptians by anyone You should also know that black and dark in ancient texts and until recently in most IE languages are interchangeable. If Herodotus had meant to describe tehm as black Africans he’d have called them Ethiops. In fact he describes where Ethiopians (black Africans) take control of the Nile in Nubia, and is very clear Eyptians are different. SInce no black Africans remains have ever been found in The Caucasus (Colchis) this should be a big hint. The text translated as black and wooly haired translateds as that literally, but more accurately translates as dark and curly haired (melanchroes and oulotriches)

      Full text
      CIV. For it is plain to see that the Colchians are Egyptians; and what I say, I myself noted before I heard it from others. When it occurred to me, I inquired of both peoples; and the Colchians remembered the Egyptians better than the Egyptians remembered the Colchians; [2] the Egyptians said that they considered the Colchians part of Sesostris’ army. I myself guessed it, partly because they are dark-skinned and woolly-haired; though that indeed counts for nothing, since other peoples are, too; but my better proof was that the Colchians and Egyptians and Ethiopians are the only nations that have from the first practised circumcision. [3] The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine acknowledge that they learned the custom from the Egyptians, and the Syrians of the valleys of the Thermodon and the Parthenius, as well as their neighbors the Macrones, say that they learned it lately from the Colchians. These are the only nations that circumcise, and it is seen that they do just as the Egyptians. [4] But as to the Egyptians and Ethiopians themselves, I cannot say which nation learned it from the other; for it is evidently a very ancient custom. That the others learned it through traffic with Egypt, I consider clearly proved by this: that Phoenicians who traffic with Hellas cease to imitate the Egyptians in this matter and do not circumcise their children

      Strabo

      The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically
      As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians

      Also described by Romans as being ‘somewhat dark’. The sphinx was a lions head carved into a human face- know you know why it has such a funny facial shape and odd proprtions.
      .

  14. Mathilda have you ever been to Egypt? If you read what i posted Herodotus says that he was in shock that even after all the years the Greeks mixed with Egyptians he saw no change in skin color there looks took on the apperence of a Greek but there skin an hair did not change and if we want to get deeper with it white genes will never be more dominate then a black one case in point Barrack Obama..Halle Berry…and even with Derek Jeter who looks more close to white then the first two he would be considered a puerto rican lookwise in Newyork City.

    Not knowing your race Mathilda but if you are white and you was to mix with another race i bet your kid would either look black…asian…latin or mixed but never white. Dont believe me try it!!!!! Anyone who has seen mixed people know this to be fact….also scientist did a melanin content of the mummys back in 1979 to prove they were black the mummys content was at black people levels if mummys were white they bake in the african sun melanin is what protects you from the sun we all learned this in highschool. Now dont get me wrong i believe Egypt had a mixed society at some point when they was being conquered but that was 100 years before Chirst death. Egypt age cant be proved case in point the Sphinx head is older then the pyramids and that Black face tells you who ruled the area long before romans and greeks took control. Now what i stated is facts prove that wrong…mix with a black man and lets see if your kid comes out looking Greek or African???

    p.s. Whats more white then a white person??? an Albino which is created more in the Black society then any other.

    • also scientist did a melanin content of the mummys back in 1979 to prove they were black the mummys content was at black people levels

      No, actually an Afrocentrist called Diop claimed he had proved Ramses (later shown to be a naturally red haired white guy buy some genuine anthropologists) with a ficticious ‘melanin drop test’. And yes, I’ve have been to Egypt and East africa, I have blood ties to Africa too; which I one of the reasons I have an interest in it.

      Got a shock for you.. DNA studies have shown modern Egyptians to be nearly entirely African in origin. Anthropological studies have shown the ancient Egyptians to be essentially the same as modern Egyptians. DNA studies on ancient North African show the same kind of DNA in modern North Africans.

      I have a bunch of half African cousins who don’t look even a vaguely black. If you mix an East African like a Somali or A south African type with a European, they can pass for Southern European. It’s a fallacy that African traits dominate.

      I’m sorry Garry… you dont’ know what you are talking about. I’m putting you on ‘the too dumb to post lcomments ist’. If you don’t know the difference between albinism and European light skin I just can’t be bothered to spend any more time replying to your comments

  15. Reference books will tell you the majestic Sir Isaac Newton was credited with the discovery of the color spectrum. The theory presents solid proof that black is the foundation or base for all colors. Newton was the celebrated White English physicist who took a glass prism and passed a beam of sunlight through it. When the light passed through the prism, it formed a rainbow he later called the color spectrum.

    By mixing the three primary colors of red, blue, and yellow together, the color black is produced. Black is the color from which all other colors are produced and is dominant. White, on the other hand, is the color of maximal lightness from which no other colors can be produced and is recessive. A little every day thing like the exalted Sir Isaac Newton’s so called discovery of the color spectrum shows more validity as it points to an African origin than the many years of research and long drawn out scientific theories to disparage and dismiss Black culture and history.

    While scientists interpret, record, and test their theories, all they need is a small box of Crayola Crayons containing three crayons and a sheet of paper to prove the Keys to the colors.

    Albinos occur in all races of mankind and in all animal groups. The albionotic condition arises from a distinct hereditary interference with the normal function of melanocytes. The enzyme tyrosinase is necessary for the formation of melanin and determines the color of the skin, hair, and eyes. Most children with albinism are born to parents who have normal hair and eye color for their ethnic backgrounds.

    White skin is a form of albinism. There is no difference, microscopically speaking, between the white skin of a Caucasoid person and the skin of a person designated as an Albino. Black people with albinism tend to have hair of a deep bright yellow, cream-colored skin, and green or hazel eyes. The social problems of Blacks are compounded if a child is born and is an Albino. In the Caucasian Race blonde hair, blue eyes, and alabaster skin are considered so highly desirable that brunettes often bleach their hair or wear colored contacts to look like Albinos.

    • Amusing Gary. No, white light is what you get when you mix all the colours together.

      Albino skin and European skin is actually quite different. For a start it’s caused by a completely different mutation, and secondly- European skin can manufacture melanin and tan. The skin colour mutaion that gives Northern Europeans their very pale skin has no effect on eye or haior colour wither.

  16. Interesting Topic i agree with alot of the above points of Garry but im a mixed person that has some black features but quick glances i would appear white sometimes people ask am i mixed because of my curvy body.

  17. Mathilda said: “DNA studies have shown modern Egyptians to be nearly entirely African in origin. Anthropological studies have shown the ancient Egyptians to be essentially the same as modern Egyptians. DNA studies on ancient North African show the same kind of DNA in modern North Africans.

    “I have a bunch of half African cousins who don’t look even a vaguely black. If you mix an East African like a Somali or A south African type with a European, they can pass for Southern European. It’s a fallacy that African traits dominate.”

    This is quite interesting. Going by surface appearances can be very deceiving. My maternal great-grandmother, 1/4 black, didn’t look at all black, whereas my paternal grandfather, who definitely was not at all black, had an African-shaped nose (talking sub-Saharan African hear) and was deeply tanned.

  18. Mathilda, will you change “hear” in the last paragraph to “here”? I type by word rather than by letter, which means the occasional homonym gets in.

  19. I was wondering Mathilda if you knew anything about the study British anthropologists, Brothwell & Spearman did? I can’t find the actual study just a bunch of Afronuts quoting things.

    Something like this

    Red/Blonde/Straight/Wavy mummy hair colour.

    You need to read-up more THOROUGLY on the effects of OXIDATION/HENNA DYES & the mummification process.

    British anthropologists, Brothwell & Spearman, have found evidence of cortex keratin oxidation in ancient Egyptian hair. They held that the mummification process was responsible, because of the strong alkaline substance used. This resulted in the yellowing and browning of hair AS WELL AS, the straightening effect.

    You seem well educated in manners like these!

    • Some of the hair is damaged, some is bleached in life.. there’s a study of Nubian mummy hair somehwere on the blog that describes the difference between them under a microscope.

      A lot of the hair samples in the tombs are wigs (J Fletcher) and these haven’t been treated. You still see the odd fair and auburn sample in untreated hair, but it’s uncommon. Mostly they had black and dark brown hair. They liked to henna it to cover the grey up- Egyptians were very vain.

    • I know blackwomen who hairs was colored black, but now its reddish brown or auburn because they used perms.

      • Yes, but for the most part the mummy hair wasn;t exposed to that kind of treatment, and the untreated wigs have typically Caucasian hair on them that matches the hair on the mummies.

  20. I don’t know about the Somalis–I know some Somali immigrants, and they are very, very, very black. I shouldn’t think their descendants would look like a southern European unless each married a white person through the third generation. The fourth generation MIGHT be able to pass for white. That said, I will add that I also know that there are various shades of darkness in people living in Somalia.

    I hope you do not mean to imply that only Egyptians are/were vain! Ask Clairol about that.

    Anne

  21. Some comments have been made to the effect that “African” features include thick lips and do not include blond hair. I saw a photo yesterday online of a group of Black Africans at a refugee center. One was a healthy-looking young man with really yellow–the color of yellow mustard mixed with a small amount of mayonnaise–hair and very white skin. He was an albino. For reasons no one knows, albinism is far more likely to occur in Sub-Saharan Africa than in any other ethnic/racial group.

    Not all African tribes have thick lips; some of them, super-Saharan (I guess that is the antonym of sub-Saharab) as well as some sub-Saharans, have quite thin lips.

    As to genetics, the fact is that the genetic mixture in present-say Egypt is almost identical to the genetic mixture in ancient Egypt. This probably is largely the result of the fact that unless you’re using ships, the easiest way to get to Southern Africa is to go straight through Egypt. And who in the world just posted that the father’s genes are stronger than the mother’s? That is one of the most nonsensical statements I have ever read in my life.

    Someone on a blog linked to this one said, “Genetically, Africans have more variety than other races.” That is true, and one of the reasons why physical anthropologists have come to believe that the “out of Africa” scenario is accurate.

    As to there being more white women married or shacked up with black men than vice versa, my friend MaryAnn Wallace, of mostly African descent, was horrified when my red-haired, fair-skinned daughter began dating MaryAnn’s half-white son. She told my daughter that in the black community, when a black man marries a white woman, his prestige goes up and hers goes down, whereas when a white man marries a black woman, her prestige goes up and his goes down. It is interesting to note that Barak Obama, who looks more than his actual half-white, married a much darker woman who would, by the standards MaryAnn told my daughter, gain status by marrying a man who looked much more African than she did, whereas he would lose prestige for the same reason.

    I think Michelle Obama is actually astounded to find herself pictured on magazine covers and called glamorous, the best-dressed First Lady since Jacqueline. I hope that she has now realized there are a lot more people in her country to be proud of than she thought there were. Nobody is going around saying, “She’s quite attractive, for a n****r.” What people are saying is, “She’s gorgeous, and she dresses so well. She really knows what looks good on her.”

    But the genetic bottlenecks have ended almost all over the world, and the world is tending in the direction of a light-brown world-wide population. Somehow, that doesn’t bother me. I have very fair skin, and one day in church I happened to be sitting beside a Tongan woman. She noticed me looking at her arms, and told me that she wish her arms looked like mine. Now, my arms are very hairy and pinkish beigish with a mixture of freckles and age spots. I told her I wished my arms my arms looked like hers, so nice and smooth and such a rich brown color.

    She laughed and said, “White woman want to be black, black woman want to be white.” I was astonished to hear her call herself black. She is, in fact, about the color experts say everybody will be within a hundred or so years.

    Can we all quit arguing about the racial makeup of the Ancient Egyptians? I’m sure that the DNA testing comparing mummy DNA and modern Egyptian DNA was quite accurate and adequate. Discussion is fine, but why argue about the order that words came in. Is the person half-black and half-white, or is she half-white and half-black? Looking at it that way, who the heck cares? Is the bottle half-full or half-empty? Is the glass half-rum and half-cola, or half-cola and half-rum? And why should it matter?

    I have just asked a silly question. I do know that there is tremendous difference between a liger and a tiglon, and tremendous difference between a phicken and a cheasant. One of these I read in a wonderful book from the late forties or very early fifties called MY ZOO FAMILY, and the other I know from personal experience, as my grandfather used to raise chickens, pheasants, and quail. The quail, probably due to their size difference, never crossbred, but every now and then a rooster would get out and mount a pheasant hen, and every now and then the male pheasant, who is an extremely rude, obnoxious, and foul-mouthed foul, would get out and mount then chicken hens. In both of these cases the difference is caused by which is the male and which is the female, and it has been repeatedly come out the same. (The first known lion-tiger mating was in the Bronx Zoo, when a tigress who had been brought up with, and lived with, a lion gave birth to a litter of tiglons.) But this does NOT mean that the male genes are stronger; it just means that the genes arrange themselves differently. Tiglons didn’t come along until later, as part of a carefully planned experiment.

    I feel like barfing every time people start arguing about things that are in all essentials quite unimportant. A black person born with adequate prenatal diet and fed an adequate lifetime diet, the child of two people who born with adequate prenatal diet and fed an adequate lifetime diet, has about the same IQ as a white person born of two people who had adequate prenatal and postnatal diet. (That’s why there’s so much dumbing down now. Too few potential mothers, and far too few potential fathers, eat right, and the beginning of the brainstem is developing before the mother has even begun to suspect she might be pregnant.)

    This whole thread reminds me of the time a Hispanic woman I worked with was called, in all innocent ignorance, a noun generally considered an ethnic slur. When she objected, the man who had miscalled her was puzzled, and came up with two or three other words, some of which were not considered slurs.When she objected, he asked, “Well, what do you WANT to be called?” She thought about it a minute and said, “I want to be called Amy.”

    I can understand that black people want to be considered as being on par with other races. But it’s not necessary to make up stories to do that. Show people Great Zimbabwe. Show people the bronzes of Benin. Understand that any writing would have been eaten by termites or washed away by next spring’s floods. People are people. Race is absolutely the least important thing about any person, and yet we often behave as though it were the most important. I find it extremely tiresome.

    Anne

  22. dranne65 : I can understand that black people want to be considered as being on par with other races. But it’s not necessary to make up stories to do that. Show people Great Zimbabwe. So in other words Ancient Egypt was a white culture?….LOL
    Another example of the Pot calling the Kettle black…..The truth shall be revealed and white people wont like it…..

    • No Joel ancient egyptians originally were black people. However they became mixed with different ethinic groups who migrated to the area. And certainly when we talk about black we are not talking about africa. Black peope are all over the planet earth with various hair textures from kinky, curly to straight. And skin shades from black to brown to yellow and light bright damn near white. However you can really never say the egyptians were white as in european if you look on the walls of the tombs of huy, or seti you will notice that the egyptians portray themselves as a brown skin complextion not different from people who are describe as black people today. however if you look at the seti mural you will see that the people that are white skinned would be classified as white today. versus the egyptian and the nubian who in todays world would still be various shades of black and be called black. As matilda said egypt is predominately african/ if that means black i will agree. As the E haplgroup y-Dna and its clades and subclades are the predominant haplogroup in egypt/kemet. Which according to genetist originate in africa.

      • No Joel ancient egyptians originally were black people

        Want to explain to me how they magically changed race when the DNA shows there was about twice as much black immigration as Eurasian? Modern Egyptians have more typically African Y chromosomes than the…

        Amhara from Ethiopia.
        Beja, Nubians and several other Sudanese groups
        The men of Cameroon

        And their Eurasian Y DNA mainly has a time depth of over 8k. The maximum foreign male contribution in historic eras into Egypt overall is about 10%, overall Eurasian historic immigration into Egypt only accounts for about 7% of ots ancestry. About 10% of the rest (overall) is attributable to black female arab era slaves. there is no way it’s biologically possible for them to have changed from black to near eastern.

        Do look at the statues and mummies- only about 1/7 show stronger black traits than Caucasoid.

  23. Dranne65 its not just about race its about the truth being distorted it seems that anytime black people have somethang of there own to claim somebody wants to take it away…example its like years from now someone saying that Jessie Owens was white and he beat the NAZI….or Eminem started HIP HOP MUSIC.

    Mathilda says she has black bloodline but she seems to be trying to claim white bloodline in AFRICA. Black hair is different for ever black person. Ive been all over the World due to me being in the military and ima name the places Canada…Isreal…France…Greece…Turkey….Crotia…Dubai..Canery Islands…Singapore…Japan…Indonesia…Portugal….Italy…Spain.

    Now i have seen alot of different faces and cultures for years. But what let me know the truth about the blacks race over the world is when i went to Indonesia to help out with Tsunami relief efforts on my ship the USNS MERCY in 2005. We hop island to island and i seen many asian faces some very dark but they looked asian. But one island caught me by surprise the people were BLACK and im not just surprised cause they were black i was in shock they was like cavemen or living in the past with spears and leafs for clothing and AFROS…they had AFROS for days. that let me know that Black history is distorted and the indonesia people said yes those are the origanal people of the islands before the spanairds came.

    My point for Mathilda is dont try to distort history of Africa just cause they built Pyramids. Embrace your black bloodline and since you soo into DNA test your blood Mathilda see how much AFRICANO you are….see were your roots are…Embrace it…they are great people.

    P.S. ofcourse im Amazing Mathilda🙂

    • I have African blood cousins. As far as I know I’m European, the average Brit has zero traceable recent African ancestry.

      Modern Egyptians are mainly native to Africa for at least the last 8k- Arab ancestry in them is very little and the persistant attempt by mainly black Americans to rob the Egyptian people of their heritage is racist and requires massive dishonesty.

      I am not distorting anything. The studies show that Egyptians are the same population now as then and I repeat that. You should get over your ‘they aren’t black enough’ attitude. BTW, check the latest mummy DNA test from Dakleh- itshowed mostly Eurasian DNA in it. The modern sample has more sub Saharan ancestry than the ancient.

      Whitish Eurasians have been in Africa for at least the last 12k. You should try reading some of the DNA studies and looking at the mummies and artwork. Egyptians don’t usaully look black. They have typically Caucasian hair-something rarely seen in Africans

      im Amazing Mathilda

      No. I’m amazing Mathilda.

      • matilda black people are not just in africa. We are all over the planet. So stop trying to put us in a box called africa. And our hair texture varies as i told joel. Kinky, curly, and straight. Exactly what dna test are you talking about (deklah)? you say it mostly eurasian. Maybe. whats the other portion?

      • Mainly Eurasian with a minority black African types at Dakleh, The upper Egyptian population currently is about 30% black for Mt DNA, and most old North African remains show at about 7% to nil black female ancestry, so the historic contribution from black women over the last 2k is probably about 20% (give or take) as even lower Nubians had a majority Eurasian female ancestry in the dynastic era.

  24. I found this Blog

    I would love for you Mathilda and fellow readers to view Kola a Black Egytian who tells how it is to be an Egytian in Egypt.

    view link

    http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/2152/9008.html

    I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU MATHILDA TO READ HER STORY AND VIEW HER PICS OF THE REAL PEOPLE OF EGYPT.

    • Having been to Luxor (old upper Egypt) I can tell you the people there are on average fair bit lighter. Those people look like they are from the Nubia area, and that woman is half Sudanese.

      BTW, Egyptians actually have remarkably little Arab ancestry. It’s black racism that spews out ‘if they aren’t black they aren’t African’. The average Egyptian is about 10% arab att he delta, near zero near Luxor, they converted to Islam, they aren’t Arabs. Get over your bigotry.

  25. Also Mathilda i found a nice youtube video of a teacher who has done research into Egypt. One thing i think you shall like he takes no sides on weather Egyptians are black or white or mixed this is a great video so please view it

    here is the link:

    Link removed due to be a terrible waste of any sane persons time

    • No Garry I’m not plugging your youtube vid. I watched it and it was the usual made up tripe from someone whopatently doesn’t understand genetics or anthropology.

      To simplfy this for you, three waves of Eurasian colonists entered Africa priro to 7k ago. Pretending they don’t exist isn’t goingto change history or the DNA results they’ve pulled from the ancient bones. Egyptians are egyptian not arabs.

      • Matilda, Eurasian colonist? From where did these people come and what type of civilization did they bring?

      • From where did these people come and what type of civilization did they bring?

        Matilda, Eurasian colonist? From where did these people come and what type of civilization did they bring?

        From Turkey, into North Africa via the near East. Quite a lot of Eurasian Y chr show a Neolithic entry into North Africa. Thier Y chr trace the path of Afroasiatic into the lake Chad region.

        Basic farmers really, with some rather crappy pottery and near eastern sickles. There’s not much left of them, so it’s hard to tell.

  26. My friend MaryAnn is very noticeably Sub-Saharan black. Her daughter Antoinette is also noticeably black, at least as she would be defined by people who think race is the most important thing in the known universe. In fact, MaryAnn is a mix of three “racial” cultural groups, and Antoinette’s father was white.

    Antoinette married Eric, a man of Scandinavian extraction. Their children look entirely white.

    I don’t think most of the people posting here want to take anything away from black people. The problem, and you find it in just about any area of heavy rain, high heat and humidity, and little stone to build with, is that it’s virtually impossible to establish a civilization that will be visible even five hundred years later, let alone five thousand years later. That means that culture is in many ways re-invented very often, because the tools for creating continuity do not exist.

    Forty-odd years ago, I taught a self-contained eighth-grade class of all-black students, most of which had never been to the closest town. They still lived in the slave shanties their slave ancestors had lived in, although I suppose every board had been replaced several times by then. They still worked on tobacco plantations as their slave ancestors had done.

    There was a leaven of students who were children of Marines on Camp Lejeune, a Marine Corps base.

    Out of 42 students, I had IQs ranging from 60 to 150, which means probably higher, as that is as high as the normal school IQ tests go.

    When I was hired, I was told that these students knew they would be going to a previously all-white high school, and they were scared to death. I was to try to calm their fears.

    I chose NOT to approach the kids with the attitude of “they can’t learn.” Instead, I started out with a discussion of the problem and what could be done about it. I told them they did not have to abandon their own culture or their “Black English,” and I explained that Black English is a perfectly real language with its own grammatical rules. However, to get on well with the overall culture of the United States, they needed to learn Standard Written American English and standard spoken English as it is used in the South.

    I worked those kids’ butts off, and they loved it. They knew every essay they wrote would be back to them the next day, with all needed changes marked, and if it wasn’t perfect they would have to do it over, not as a punishment but as a necessity for learning.

    I had to leave the school in late January, when my husband was transferred. In March, I got a phone call from the teacher who had replaced me. She told me, in some shock, that when the results of the annual achievement tests came back, my students had improved an average of three grade levels, and were now functioning in school on a par with the white students they’d be meeting the next year.

    BLACK PEOPLE ARE NOT INFERIOR. SAYING THAT THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS WERE IN GENERAL, WITH EXCEPTIONS, NOT BLACK IS NOT AN ATTACK ON BLACK PEOPLE. IT’S A SIMPLE STATEMENT OF FACT.

    By the way, I believe that Barak Obama is normally referred to as 50% black, not as 50% white. I may be, though I am not sure, a distant cousin of his on the side of his maternal grandfather. At the moment I would like to kick dear cousin Barak around the block, but it’s not because of his race. It’s because of his not-so-endearing trait of thinking he can make the impossible happen.

    The Egyptians, ancient or modern, were/are not a race. They were/are an ethnic group–in fact, they were/are several ethnic groups.

    Being Muslim does not make one Arab. The Iranians are Caucasian; the Iraqis, right next door, are Arabs. The Egyptians are mostly Muslim, but they are not Arabs. Most of the Christians in Egypt are Copts. They are Christians, but they are not Caucasians. In fact, Christianity began as a Semitic religion, though it spread rapidly into Caucasian areas and was in India within sixty years of its founding. Egyptians are Egyptians. Egyptians were Egyptians. Of course you’re going to find a greater admixture of Negroid traits near the cataracts than you are near the Delta; of course you’re going to find a greater admixture of Semitic traits near the Delta than near the cataracts. People marry or otherwise reproduce with people who are near them, not usually with people who are far, far away.

    I wish the Afrocentrists could get it through their heads that reading DNA is not an attack on Africans.

    When my children found out–and I think I said this earlier in this discussion–that we are partly black, I got one “All RIGHT” and two “cool”s, and the youngest of the three is almost 40. If my youngest child were still alive she’d be ecstatic, because she was always drawn to black culture.

    History should not be approached on the basis of race except where such an approach is necessary, as it is in the study of slavery in Europe and the Americas, which was race-based. Slavery in most situations was not race-based. To say that the first Negroes in Egypt were taken there as slaves is absurd. There is absolutely no evidence to support that claim. There IS evidence to support a claim that Egyptians owned, as slaves, Negroes, Semites, and Caucasians. There is also evidence to support a claim that Egyptians, Negroes, Semites, and Caucasians all have ruled Egypt at one time or another.

    Ancient Egypt was a wonderful, enduring, civilization that changed amazingly little from the first dynasty to the time that Alexander conquered and then the Ptolomies–Greeks–took over. To sully it with multiple racist (whether it’s Eurocentric, Afrocentric, or visitors from outer space-centric) sentiments is stupid and, to me at least, infuriating. The Egyptians were culturalists, not racists. Race simply did not interest them, although they portrayed it quite accurately on the walls of tombs and temples.

    I do not like racism in any form or fashion. It is offensive to logic as well as to human beings. If you are Afrocentric, or if you are Eurocentric, get off your high horse and study the REAL evidence. The fact that something is in print does not make it necessarily true.

  27. At first read, I was very interested in your research, but as I waded through, it occurred to me that yours is the mind of a directional evolutionist. Objective scientists don’t cherry pick data to fit their theories.

    I am 100% Egyptian. Both of my parents are 100% Egyptian. My mother’s family come from Daklhla in the Western Desert. My father’s family come from Upper Egypt. My mother’s family are matrilinear descendants of a clan mother who lived during dynastic days. My father’s mother’s family are typical Sa’id- that is, the descendants of ancient Egyptians who lived in the same region all that time ago.

    We are not white nor are we black. We are Sa’id or Bejan, Bisharin or Siwi. We are indigenous Egyptians. We are Red Africans. We are older than these foolish presuppositions on Eurocentric/Afrocentric notions of “race”.

    I see you have no problem using a photograph of one of my own ancestors in this blog and then you have the audacity to use the paradigm of Negro and Caucasian when neither definition are quantifiable or at all applicable. Your myopic world view only allows you to see in black and white.
    We know by our molecular genetics that we are directly descended of the poor mummies disgraced in their unrest in museums around the world. We are still the same people and still marry within the same cultural traditions passed down by our ancestors. But you ethnocentrics never cease insulting us -denigrate our cultural diversity, our great history and ethnic diversity.
    Shame on you.

  28. Maybe the best way is to ask todays Egyptians if they think that early Egyptians were black or not.

    Well I have already did that. Some modren day Egyptians say that they were black and most have said that they were not black but egyptians. So the answers are mixed. For example i can remember the Egyptian minister of culture say ancient Egyptian culure was his culture and that even if they were black they still was black because they were darken by the sun. Its very hot out there by the way. The modern Egyptian is not the ancient Egyptian. The Arabs came to Egypt in 630 AD almost a thuosand yrs after the last dynasty. Its just like president Bush claiming ancient native american history as his culture. There no connection. Mr Bush can’t claim native american history as his culture. He’s not native american. Many of us on this forum are not native american so we can’t claim it as our culture. The egyptian did not remain homogeneous. They was conquered by the Assyrians Persians Greeks Romans and Arabs. This was long after the great yrs of ancient Egypt. There was some inter marriages early on but what we are saying that doing the pyramid age , the middle kingdom , the 18 and 19 dynasty and the Sudanese age we are dealing with a dominate African figures.There many fact here pertaining to the origin the ancient Egyptians. The classical writers gives us a clear picture as to what race the ancient Egyptians was. Go check it out as I said they saw them okay but I do understand your fear on this matter.

    • Modern Egyptian.. about 82% of their male ancestry goes back to before the predynastic era: most of tthe female ancestry added after that dates seems to be black African, as they have DNA studies from ancient sites with aminly Eurasian DNA right into upper Egypt

      Egyptians aren’t Arabs, most of their Y chr are distinctly African.

  29. Firstly, I’m not an Afrocentist, but I get confused at the point you are attempting to make regarding the origins of the Ancient Egyptians. The ancient world (as described by reading various historic books) didn’t have or place importance on the issue of race. It is clear that there was no antipathy between the races mixing . Logically, the Eurasians that would have arrived in Egypt before the pyramids were erected would have encountered the indegenous populace (likely black africans); because it’s fair say that the land was not vacant. Furthermore, you’re already aware that the Eurasian movement didn’t just stop in Egypt; but spread across North Africa (I read the DNA reports/discussions). Again, I postulate logically that the lands they would settle through migration was not vacant and they would have met indegenous people (like sub-saharan africans); because there were movements made to the north by Africans.
    After thousands of years of racial mixing (and this is prior to the building of the pyramids)concentrated mainly in Lower Egypt and North Africa; is it possible the outward appearance of its people (and I stress not their genetic composition) cannot be anything other than range from light-brown to brown; or dark brown depending on the depth of admixture. In today’s race-obsessed western society, the skin tones I’ve stated will never be described as European or Caucasian (though I appreciate that you have made clear that “Caucasian does not mean European”). The Ancient Egyptians, though not as dark as Nubians; or not as white as the Greeks saw themselves as unique; however by today’s description they would be labelled as “black”.

    Take for example the former US General Colin Powell. He has Scottish-Irish, Iroquois Native American Indian heritage because he does not have the classical appearance of a negro, but the society that he was raised in has described him as “black”. You’re also aware of Barack Obama’s parentage yet the world has seen him as the 1st black US president.

    The issue of race when referring to Ancient Egypt is unimportant because the legacy that they have left behind still continues to amaze the world. But, that said, there is a strong reluctance to give credence to the very idea that they were “black” by today’s generic term.

    We know that children from modern day mixed marriages or unions from black african / white european will inherit genetic traits from both parents (a good example is where the offspring would have caucasoid facial features or maybe pass the negroid feature to the next generation because the genetics traits will not disappear)

    It is a well known fact that the Russian Poet, Alexander Pushkin who was 25% black (his paternal father was white) exhibited negroid features and it was something he was proud of.

    • My point is that Egyptians are the same now (in appearance) as they were then. Roughly equal amounts of the population (20% total my guess) is comprised of black slaves from the Arab slave trade (mainly women) and Arabs that settled after the conquest. I went through the genetics studies with a fine tooth comb this week, and they are rather consistent in showing modern Egyptians are mainly not Arabs.

      I’d like to point out the North Africans with minimal Arab and European input are still mainly not like black Africans (North Moroccan Berbers).

  30. mathilda are you trying to imply that they were white?Does it every dawn on you that black people occupied these lands upper and lower egypt. Were these people not kemetians(egyptians)Everybodys crying dna. There is still alot to be learn about DNA. Looking at the mural in setis tomb gives us a look at how the egyptian(khemetian) seen himself as a brown complextion which in todays society is considered black. I fit that same complextion don’t tell me i am white.

    • El.. I (and every published anthropologist who’s studies them) is saying they are the same as modern Egyptians.

      Actually we are quite a way into the DNA. See my prior comment. It shows more African immigration into Egypt than Arab (slave trade and don’t say it the import of slaves makes no difference to a population- just look at America.

  31. my grandfather and grandmother look yummy

  32. The moderator keep making a point that make no sense to all standards. How come after all those invasions that occure after the Great period could those great people have had the same DNA as the Egyptian of today? Persian, roman, Greek, Arab, European and … Why do you think as “white” they had felt the need to shave, braid their hair or use wigs (for ages African people have done this for social , religion or rituals matters ). Researches have prove the fact that there is a strong similarity between west African philosophy of life, culture, religion and rituals and the so call “ancient Egyptian” culture. Moreover, have you read some studies of west African languages and ancient Egyptian language. Finally, you should find the name those great people gave to their country; it wasn’t Egypt!

    • There’s a full DNA break down of Egyptians on this blog- they show less than 10% historical immigration from Europe and the near EAst, there seems to have been more immigration from black Africans due to the millenia of Arab slavery. There’s also a couple of hair studies that conclude the hair is typically Caucasian for the most part- so posting links of afro hair styles is lame.

      FYI, there’s a higher percentage of specifically African male ancestry in Egyptians than in Cameroon.
      And higher than in Nubians, the Beja, the sudanese Hausa and many other black African tribes. Egyptians are Africans they just aren’t black.

      LMAO- there’s NO connection at all between Egypt and West Africa- biological, linguistic or cultural. Their language groups with Semitic and Berber, and has nothing to do with any Bantu language.

      And they called Egypt ‘the two lands’- Kemet meant balck land and only referred to the fertile river areas.

  33. Some pictures of some descendants of these great people. You can match their hair styles with scenes of the pyramids:
    http://ethiopedia.blogspot.com/2008/07/ethiopian-hair-styles.html

  34. “Since microscopic analysis shows ancient Egyptian hair to be completely African, why does the hair look Caucasoid? Research has given us the answers.

    Hair is made of keratin protein. Keratin is composed of amino acid chains called polypeptides. In a hair, two such chains are called cross-chain polypeptides. These are held together by disulphide bonds. The bulk of the hair, the source of its strength and curl, is called the cortex. The hair shafts are made of a protective outer layer called the cuticle.

    We are informed by Afro Hair – A Salon Book, that chemicals for bleaching, penning and straightening hair must reach the cortex to be effective. For hair to be permed or straightened the disulphide bonds in the cortex must be broken. The anthropologist Daniel Hardy writing in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, tells us that keratin is stable owing to disulphide bonds. However, when hair is exposed to harsh conditions it can lead to oxidation of protein molecules in the cortex, which leads to the alteration of hair texture, such as straightening.

    Two British anthropologists, Brothwell and Spearman, have found evidence of cortex keratin oxidation in ancient Egyptian hair. They held that the mummification process was responsible, because of the strong alkaline substance used. This resulted in the yellowing and browning of hair as well as the straightening effect.

    This means that visual appearance of the hair on mummies cannot disguise their racial affinities. “

    • Two British anthropologists, Brothwell and Spearman, have found evidence of cortex keratin oxidation in ancient Egyptian hair. They held that the mummification process was responsible, because of the strong alkaline substance used.

      BULLSHIT ALERT
      WHoop whoop.

      No, they said it could lighten. However, a lot of the hair samples are wigs that weren’t processed. They also said that a look under a microscope can tell the difference between naturally light and bleached. To see the actual info from the paper instead of the made up POS you sent me..And further more- Afro hair grows out of the scalp at a diffenet angle and has a different cross section too

      http://wysinger.homestead.com/hair_semma.pdf
      Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South (Sudanese Nubia)

      Pigmentation, even allowing for oxidation of melanin,
      showed a higher proportion of lighter samples than
      is currently associated with the Nubian area.

      the apparent limitation of oxidation to the cuticle
      in the Semna sample argues for the maintenance
      of hair form in the samples in spite of
      their age.
      and this Nubian sample is essentially Mulatto in nature
      Brothwell and Spearman (’63) studied
      North African and other material using a
      variety of techniques, including microscopic
      examination, fluorescence microscopy, and reflectance
      spectrophotometry; they found the
      state of preservation of the samples closely related
      to environmental factors of the burial
      sites. More recently, Chiarelli et al. (’70/’71)
      studied ancient Egyptian samples with scanning
      electron microscopy, finding significant
      loss of cuticular scale edges. Using microscopic
      and macroscopic techniques, Titlbachova
      AM. J. PHYS. ANTHROP. (1978) 49: 277-262.
      and Titlbach (’77) studied Egyptian mummies
      in Czechoslovakian collections; they found
      generally good preservation, with the samples
      resembling modern European populations
      with significant African admixture.

  35. By the way there were white, Jew, Asian people or Greek during this period of time in the Black Land but they were not part of the royal families or any high ranked people. There is a scene of a pyramid that shown this reality. Thus, this is logical if take use the mummy of one of them that they have found Caucasian hair. I hope one day, the Egyptian government will stop this nonsense and will released the DNA simple of the royal mummies.

  36. -Semitic or Berber language belong to the Afro-Asiatic language family among cushitic, omotic, egyptian, chadic. The geographic distribution of those group are North Africa, horn of Africa, west Africa and southwest-asia. Those languase are spoken in west Africa by example by hausa (chadic-nigeria), touareg (berber) or elsewhere by somali, afar, omoro (cushitic)… By the way since the discovery of the black mummy which existed before the great period (2 years old child found somewhere in sub-Saharan area), the link between other African cultures or religion and ancient Egyptian has became indisputable.

  37. Thinking-

    the oldest North African mummies are two white ladies from Libya- not the Muhuggiag mummy. Also, Egyptians groups with Berber and Semitic- all the black AA speakers show recent ancestyr from Eurasia so claiming its African in origin is on dubious grounds- it shows a spread from Eurasia.

    The DNA shows very little input from the near East into Egypt- and the mummies have Eurasian mt DNA.

  38. 1. Your use of vulgar curse words is offensive, unnecessary, and reveals a level of subjectivity that devalues your position.
    2. This synthesized paper is equal to yours if slightly less biased. Neither stand on their own on academic grounds but present compelling evidence worthy of further discussion and research.
    3. Afrocentrics are simply the opposite side of the coin of Eurocentrics. Both make claims about my ancestor’s culture that reveal presuppositional biases and myopic world views.

    4. My own family has lived in the same valleys and oases forever. We have strict edicts regarding marriage as all land is passed down matrilinearly as has always been the case.
    We sued and won our case against a museum in Europe that displayed five mummies stolen from our valley during Napoleanic times. They laughed at our family for centuries asserting that it was impossible these physical bodily remains could possibly belong to our family. Finally, in the 1990’s it was proven unequivocally, that three of the five mummies were indeed our direct ancestors; one was inconclusive and one unrelated. All five were returned to our family.

    We are Africans. We have always been African.
    We are Red Africans as different from Black Africans as we are from Arabs and Turks.
    We have nothing but respect and admiration for our Black African neighbors but neither of us claim one another as kin. We are respective cultures with respective languages and and histories. We are often intertwined and have been since the beginning of time.
    Nevertheless, it is insulting and degrading, culturally insensitive and counter-productive to describe our ancestors as “mulattos” which means mule.

    Straight hair is common throughout East Africa. It always has. Zebu Cattle came from India. Watusi Cattle and Angkole Cattle, Egyptian Cattle are all hybrids between Zebu Cattle and an Extinct Saharan wild cattle.

    If any crossing of ethnicities occurred it took place when Indo Aryans arrived to trade their cattle countless generations ago.

    The Delta is a mixing pot. Aswan is a mixing pot.

    Noble families are not mixing pots.

    As I live in America, people consider me Black. This is fine by me as I am an African American. I was born in Egypt and I live in America. However, when I return to Egypt I cannot call myself Black because the Dinka and the Fur ( Darfur) already possess that distinction.

    You American Blacks need not be despondent or feel pushed away from your homeland, the continent of Africa but you must be intellectually honest with yourselves.

    If you truly care to learn about your history you must take up cultural anthropology and learn about domesticated crops, and livestock. Learn about the migration of cultural ideas and languages outside of ethnocentric biases.

    There is but one consciousness and one humanity.

    • Milad- My vulgar tone was from irritation at having someone presenting me with that turd (again) and claiming it’s any kind of science- it isn’t. It’s a line of bull claiming negroid hair can magically morph into caucasian hair with chemicals- news flash…it can’t . And the reason East Africans have straight hair on occassions if they are about 40% Eurasians and straight hair will crop up now and then due to their Eurasian ancestry

      Most mummy hair is very well preserved, the levels of structural degradation required to straighten the hair isn’t common in the samples – many of the hairs were never processed and are in wigs. Real life qualified scientists have looked at the mummy hair and said it’s mainly caucasoid – bearing most relationship to the hair samples of mediterranean people.

  39. Can you please explain to me how we East Africans can be EurAsian when we have been living in the same place since time began? Perhaps your frustration begins with faulty paradigms and myopathy?

    As for “Negroid” hair I don’t even know where to begin with that. I happen to know that the remains of my own relatives that had very coarse and curly one might define as woolly hair, this becomes very straight and reddens as a process of dessication and heat.

    Have you ever been to the Sahara?

    The hair was never of the morphology as West or Central Africans to begin with as we have different origins and climatic conditions resulting in different hair structure. When I look at my family I see that our hair is more like Australian Aborigine than Negro but know well that we are neither and something in between.

    I take umbrage with your outdated paradigm of Negro and Eurasian because it consistently marginalizes the existence of our race, the Egyptian race. We are Red Africans.

    • Milad- Saharan populations are a mix of ‘came from Eurasia’ a long time ago and ‘never left Africa’ populations. The ‘never left Africa’ typically get referred to as negroid. I didn’t pick the word. ALL the African populations that display straight hair have significant amounts of Eurasian in them.

      The hair types differ in multiple ways- dessication won’t change the angle it grows out of the scalp, shape in cross section or the colour curliness- you need chemicals for that. Most mummy hair samples are in pretty good condition and haven’t had anywhere near enough damage to alter the hair structure.

  40. wow! you explain more than once in your blog and they still ask the same questions! you would think they could read through all your comments before they asked the same question?don’t let these retards get to you. people don’t realize skin color is from adaptation from ones environment and not race. and that’s exactly the case in modern and ancient egyptians having reddish brown skin. my ancestors and family have a reddish brown skin tone(we’re lakota) yet you won’t see me claiming the ancient egyptians. and when you do say caucasian people automatically think you’re saying white or european. it’s sad most don’t know how to think outside the box. remember you people claiming ancient egypt as black looks never determine who we are genetically! look up wayne joseph who spent 51 years as a black man and come to find out he didn’t have any african dna in him.

  41. …as to malcolm X having redhair, in the 70’s
    i worked as a luncheon waiter at the blackhawk
    in chicago, where i had the pleasure of meeting
    a black cook who had worked with malcolm
    on the luncheon car of the chicago railroad.
    my friend remembered him kindly, malcolm
    was not known as malcolm then, he was called
    red because he conked his hair(with lye to
    make it red), so i don’t think you can say
    he had naturally redhair, but one can say
    he was a fiery orator, a genius numbers runner,
    and a comet from the torch of lady liberty
    for his people, our people.
    god takes his heroes
    from the stones in the road(mex phrase),
    and that road finally led to the white house.

  42. …you tell ’em, malissa, i’ve spent 66 yrs as
    a white man wishing he was a black man wishing he was a white man wishing he was a black man,
    and i think that’s the answer to racism: wishing.
    today i’m wishing i was a japanese wishing he was a korean wishing he was a chinaman wishing he was a mongolian wishing he was a tartar:
    i’ll settle for kandinsky, who i am sure wished
    he was an aleut wishing he was a kodiak bear
    when the salmon were running.

  43. …you tell ’em, malissa, i’ve spent 66 yrs as
    a white man wishing he was a black man wishing he was a white man wishing he was a black man,
    and i think that’s the answer to racism: wishing.
    today i’m wishing i was a japanese wishing he was a korean wishing he was a chinaman wishing he was a mongolian wishing he was a tartar:
    i’ll settle for kandinsky, who i am sure wished
    he was an aleut wishing he was a kodiak bear
    when the salmon were running, while all the
    salmon were thinking of was caviar.

  44. …lakota, dakota, nakota=tlakotli(N)=coua(N)=
    to buy=tlacotli(N)=slave=caua(N)=
    (es)c(l)ava=to own being=acabar(sp)=finish, end(slavery was forlife).
    in this case, the tzouia(N)=hunt with a
    noose/tzo-(N)=hole/lasso=tlaza(N)=throw down=t/l/raze=lazo(sp), i say, in this case,
    the sioux/tzouia(N) were named by their enemies, or at least by an observer, ah,
    here it is: dictionary of americanisms,
    uchicago, matthews: nadowessi/nadowessioux
    (chippewa)=little snake/enemy, hmmm,
    the ojibway are not to be trusted with
    etymology since they’re great jokers,
    amerindian linguistsdidn’t know
    what their name meant:
    chipaua/ochipauac(N)=purify, clean, and,
    ojibway=pucker-up, welt on mocactzine(N)=
    your hon. cactli/shoes? ah, first, ojibway,
    from its lettering is the newer version of
    chipaua/chippawa, for, p is prime, and,
    the j is a melted ch, they have taken
    ojibway from, o chi/ji b/p(a)ua/way/c=
    ochipauac(N)=purified, refined.
    the alkonquin/acoqui=acocquetzi(N)/
    coquettes/co(n)querers enjoyed a joke
    like chip/scab/clean , e.g., acoqui(N)=
    who/-qui aco-/from on high=ago(E).
    anyway, trust my etymology,
    (n)akota, dakota, lakota, tlacotl(N),
    and, la/s)co/utx(basque), then there’s
    polish, grodi= g(c(r)oti=(tla)cotli.
    oh, the welt, pucker is from,
    chipeliui/chipeloa(N)=to scab, by extension,
    bark/chip(E), also, ship, the first ships
    were logs. the chippewa were poking fun
    at the indian agents/traders with this etym.
    the constant between scab/bark/chip
    is the body=tlaca/(t)la(r)ch/ca=larch(tree).

  45. carlos lascoutx

    …so, let’s see, cactli(N)=mocactzine(N)=
    your/mo -cac/shoes tzine/saintly. ah,
    gangen(aberdeen, scotland, pikitillum)=
    g/ca(n)c/gen(letra)=cactli(N).
    in todays la jornada, an article on,
    calzada(sp), stating that the nauatl,
    caltzalantli=between houses, is closer
    to the spanish word=shod, than the
    Latin=calci_ta, which is calcetín(sp)=
    sock(apparel), however, the autor,
    carlos montemayor doesn’t realize
    that the (l) is inclusive, and the word,
    calzar/calzada/ca(l)c/zar(letra)=
    cactli=shoe(mocassin), and not
    the word, calli(N)=house, or,
    caltzalantli/calli tzalantli.

    but, how does house/calle(sp)=street?
    the word in nauatl=ocalli(N)=street,
    from, otli calli(N)=road/(r)oute/(r)uta-
    calli/with house/ocala(florida/amerindian)/
    ylitza(russ)y=o(t)li tza/calli(letra)/
    ut, uti(hung.)/otka(armenian?)/
    (c)alley(E)/aller, allé(Fr).
    otli(N)=odos(gk)/out(E)/ot(russ)/
    o(r)der/odol(basque)=(b)lood(E).
    hmmm, (N) acts like pie. tks

  46. mathilda37 // March 25, 2009

    Quote:

    “You are extremely selective with your historical quotes. And apparently don’t know that black Africans were uniformly referred to as Ethiopians, a word never used for Egyptians by anyone…” End Quote

    Hmmm, Ethiopians (root word: Ethiopia) a word never used for Egyptians (root word: Egypt)… Well, perhaps these Biblical verses might be of value in rebutting your stake on that.

    2 Kings 19:9 “And when he heard say of Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, Behold, he is come out to fight against thee”

    Isaiah 37:9 And he heard say concerning Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, He is come forth to make war with thee”

    Now, it would be quite interesting to see if you’d post references that claim it wasn’t Taharqa, Nubian pharaoh of the 25th dynast (or an article or two that refutes that he was Black at all). But if anyone could, it would be you, Mathilda.😉 All it has to do is object to a significant Black African presence in Northeast Africa and it’ll be in here (quick). Hopefully, you won’t go that direction, though. Besides, I don’t think there’s much room for misconception of the above verses, or rather, some spiel about a mistranlation or whatever, ie. “that’s not what the authors meant,” “it’s not Egypt they’re talking about” or “they were only making reference to where this (well documented Black African) king originally came from,” yada yada… (because it won’t fly).

    But, since I don’t play favorites, especially when it comes to the race(s) of the Egyptians, and I certainly don’t want to seem like some advocate for Afrocentric nonsense, I will add that; Even though the 25th dynasty definitely consisted primarily of a Black African royal and administrative class, for the rest of “The Two Lands,” it was business as usual. In other worlds… Just as Libyans, Persians, Syrians and Greeks had their shot at ruling Egypt, the only thing “specific” about their racial or ethnic affinities was that they were simply the ruling class at the time. That’s it. There was no change made to the overall Egyptian population just because they were there. And if there was a dent in the population, it was so insignificant that its not worth mentioning. Remember, Herodotus is quoted as describing the common Egyptian as being “black/dark skinned” however, this was during PERSIAN rulership which gives the strongest clue of the general population not being significantly affected by the Persians. So, Black Nubians ruled Egypt, White Persians ruled Egypt… so what. It changed nothing… Egypt still remained predominantly Eurasian to the North, mixed throughout, and predominently Negroid to the (deep) South (with variations and admixtures that still confuse us all and sustain these endless and mindless debates).

    • Some of the dynasties would come into the ‘black’ category. My main point as always is that there’s been very little immigration into Egypt from Eurasian in historic times and it was equally from Black Africa and the near East.

  47. carlos lascoutx

    …ah, nadowessi(chippewa/chipauac) does
    not mention snake, unless one takes, nado
    to mean, nacatl(N)snaka(OE)snake(E).
    to me it seems to follow, nada(sp)/natation(Fr)=
    to swim, and, wessi/(m)ississippi/sip(amerindian)=river, we=ue(N)=big, or,
    ua(N)=own. however, nado-, may be,
    naualtia(N)=to hide(in the river),
    perhaps a sioux ambush tactic. tks

  48. Quote: “…it was equally from Black Africa and the near East.” End Quote

    One of your more notable assertions, thank you. Regardless of how much debate revolves around the issue of race and the Egyptians, Egypt’s population (past to present day) is a direct result of interaction and intermarriage with its neighbors (Northeast, West and South). No matter which period in history or prehistory we look, we will find Eurasian and Sub-Saharan African admixture throughout. To what greater extent (in ancient times) depends on the motive or agenda of the author of a particular work,, which is precisely the reason why endless racial debates exist. Our amateur or professional opinions on Egypt can not change the fact that this land and the inhabitants of it always has and always will be a mixed bag in terms of contributing races to its populace. This region (or the whole of North Africa for that matter) has never been homogeneous to anyone.

  49. 6000 years ago there where no so called white people on this planet

    as dna studies showed…

    also the romans the greeks and the ancient egypts themselfes have stated several times that the originof the ancient EGYPTIANS is Ethiopia the place where the nil originates
    thus the simililar language
    as for the peoplke of egypt today after ancient egypt fell it was invaded by greeks, romans in the antique, arabs, mameluk turks in the darkages and even british and french in modern times
    all those people that came AFTER ancient egypt was long gone
    have ancestry in modern Egyptians

    but the ancient egyptians who built the pyramids and other great tombs
    they were as black as it gets

    the first upright walking man was an african
    there fore culture and speah and everything that comes with it including potery mathematics art music etc originates in africa

    peopel went ouzt of africa and populated the world
    they dont went from other continents to populate empty africa as u make it sound

    the greeks said teh egyptians where of teh ssmae looks as other africans
    very dark and rather skinny
    and they should have known
    herodot, euclid, pythagoras, aristotle, plato and many more have studied on the famous african universitys

    the greeks went to egypt to study on the first university of the world in waset

    thus most of what you know of as greek philosophy is egyptian/african

    by no means i want to degrade the cultures of ancient mesopotamia or china

    but as simple and plain as noone would claim the ancient chines where blond and blue eyed
    no one in his right mind can claim this for the ancient egyptians

    further more we come to find that we cant even claim they where anything less then very dark black mostly

    also i want to remind you that in ancient egypt everything black was a good thing and everything white was asociated with destruction and chaos

    and to the eurocentrists
    wurope isnt the center of the earth
    its only the center of YOUR thinking

    You need to learn that Europe isnt the source of all culture
    as i stated the human played his first songs in africa he spoke the first time in africa…
    the first art science and craftsmanship …in africa

    so concluding all this i say there have been great civilizatiuons almost every where Mesopotamia china mesoamerica africa (and of course the greek and romans (maybe))

    please stop telling us the daughter gave birth to her mother
    that never happend (besides in some really remote areas with very little people lol)

    and i want to mention i am not an afrocentric
    but if not being eurocentric makes me that so be it

    • The skin mutation that makes Europeans pale pink as opposed to Asian tan dates back to as much as 12k, Whiterthanwhiteguy, so where you get the 6k from I don’t know.

      Prior to that the skin tone of Europeans wasn’t African black- a Frenchman with a heavy sun tan would be pretty close to the skin tone prior. Mutations for blond hair, borwn, fair and red hair all all older than the migration into Europe. Many people in the far north East of Russia don’t have this skin lightening gene and they aren’t black.

      The Y chr of Egypt tell us that it is not biologically possible for there to have been more than 5% immigration from Europe and the near East into it historically, mummy DNA compared to modern actually shows theres been about twice as much black immigration into Egypt. They look the same as they did.

      Actually the greeks said..
      The Egyptians were dark skinned and curly haired like the Caucasian Georgians near the black sea.(herodotus)
      Ruddy and like the Scythians (Iranians) from Hippocrates
      Said Egyptians were not Ethiopians (blacks)
      One actually said there were ‘no blacks in the Nile valley’ (Xenophanes)
      The Romans said on two occassions that they were like the people of North India (pakistan). Another said they were somwhat dark, and Roman art does not show any North African as black.

      Actually black was the colour of death and fertile nile valley mud, red was the colour of chaos. white was a positive colour and you often see their goddesses painted white, with red and blond hair sometimes.

      lets see … farming-turkey/iran
      metallurgy-Serbia
      First cities- Georgia
      first pottery- china- Africa and the near East tie at about 10k.
      first writing- officially Sumeria but southern Europe is looking good for this too.

  50. Stygian Cellarius

    Mathilda, I love your blog. I think you are fair and objective. You have stated what IS, via DNA, artistic representation, historical and anthropological knowledge. The only time I see anything that could be interpreted as “Caucacentrism” is when you are directly countering Afrocentric pseudo-science. Which is not a bias at all, but appears to be from an Afrocentric point of view. Simply because it is not in agreement with the idea that Egypt was a Negroid creation.
    You do explain it very clearly, to a degree where I would think no rational mind could object, but it wouldn’t matter if you were vindicated via cloning every pharaoh, from the rise of Egypt to its decline. If an individual has already accepted Ancient Egypt as a Negroid creation, they have experienced the birth of pride, where there was once little, which will not be fleeting so easily and nothing will ever convince them otherwise, it is only a waste of time to try. That doesn’t mean it’s a waste of time to counter it, since other people are reading this blog. Not countering it may give legitimacy to their absurd claims (and give the Afrocentrist a false sense of being victorious). So in a way, you are forced too. It doesn’t mean you are trying to champion a “Eurocentric” perspective, but in reponse, you must stress the Caucasoid element to fully neutralize their Afrocentric claims. It really annoys me when non-Afrocentrists perceive this as Eurocentrism (I could care less how Afrocentrist see it).

    I understand what fuels the Afrocentric perspective of ancient Egypt. They discovered information that is somewhat ambiguous, as to who the ancients were. They have abused this opportunity as a vehicle to prove Negroes are competent, that’s what it all boils down too. This is their gold to achieve this. Unfortunately, it is fools gold. All their chips rest on this. You can imagine how resistant one would be if their only hope for proving their worth to the world be proven false. Nothing will ever convince them. Their inexorable convictions are understandable, but just not true.
    You do explain it very clearly, to a degree where I would think no rational mind could object, but it wouldn’t matter if you were vindicated via cloning every pharaoh, from the rise of Egypt to its decline. If an individual has already accepted that ancient Egypt was a Negroid creation, the birth of pride in response, where there was once none, will not be fleeting so easily and nothing will ever convince them otherwise, it is only a waste of time to try. That doesn’t mean it’s a waste of time to counter it, since other people are reading this blog and not countering it may give legitimacy to their absurd claims (and give the Afrocentrist a false sense of being victorious). So in a way, you are forced too. It doesn’t mean you are trying to champion a “Eurocentric” perspective, but in reponse you must stress the Caucasiod element to fully neutralize their Afrocentric claims. It really annoys me when non-Afrocentrists percieve that as Eurocentrism (I could care less how Afrocentrist see it).

    I understand what fuels the Afrocentric perspective of ancient Egypt. They discovered information that is somewhat ambiguous, as to who the ancients were. They have abused this opportunity as a vehicle to prove Negroes are competent, that’s what it all boils down too. This is their gold to achieve this. Unfortunately, it is fools gold. All their chips rest on this. You can imagine how resistant one would be if their only hope for proving their worth to the world be proven false. Nothing will ever convince them.

  51. Milad: you made the most sense out of anyone ive heard so far. even though dont get me wrong matilda your research is good but your agenda is quite apparent. even when Milad told you that they were red africans you still wanna try to make them white somehow im just saying. they are in between and neither just like she said. i think we need to step back and respect her heritage and quit trying to turn her into a mulatto as you keep saying. as she said everyone traded with egypt so im sure everyones blood did get gradually introduced. that dosent make them more white or more black or less egyptians. so dont get it twisted cause still no one or race can take credit for their accomplishment but the real egyptians and if she say they were red africans i belive that. cause it makes sense than trying to make them black white or what ever. it just shows you what can happen when a society looks past race

    Thank you Milad

  52. by the way im always open for discussion dionianmail@yahoo.com. and milad if you com back to this page please hit me up also and thanks for posting the research matilda im still going through it…peace

  53. Quote: “…it was equally from Black Africa and the near East.” End Quote

    One of your more notable assertions, thank you. Regardless of how much debate revolves around the issue of race and the Egyptians, Egypt’s population (past to present day) is a direct result of interaction and intermarriage with its neighbors (Northeast, West and South). No matter which period in history or prehistory we look, we will find Eurasian and Sub-Saharan African admixture throughout. To what greater extent (in ancient times) depends on the motive or agenda of the author of a particular work,, which is precisely the reason why endless racial debates exist. Our amateur or professional opinions on Egypt can not change the fact that this land and the inhabitants of it always has and always will be a mixed bag in terms of contributing races to its populace. This region (or the whole of North Africa for that matter) has never been homogeneous to anyone.

  54. Malcolm X was 50% Black, 25% Grenadian and 25% White.😉

  55. Black africans have a great history to be proud of. So why the vitriol of the “afrocentrists” esp. about that king tut exhibit? Blacks don’t need to take the egyptians’ heritage, they should be proud of their own–theres nothing wrong with it!! Blacks should be very proud–black people are beautiful. But the forensic specialists who reconstructed the boy king didn’t even know who they were reconstructing.–so how could there be racial bias in their renditions of a more caucasion looking tut? It just isn’t fair to current day egyptians— They should have a right to their own heritage too–and shouldn’t be told they are black if that is not how they identify. Its stupid to talk about race–since we’re all just mixed up anyway—but still, it seems unnecessarily weird to picket a king tut exhibit and make a big deal about nonsense.

    • It just isn’t fair to current day egyptians

      Hear hear. As they often comment when I PM them, they don’t enjoy having thier history stolen.

  56. All humans originated from “Africa”. Period.

    • All humans originated from “Africa”. Period.

      Err, plenty of DNA studies beg to differ.

      • If humans originated all over the world, how would they have been able to interbreed? It does seem probable that humanity originated in Africa and that different “races” originated later in various places as a result of genetic bottlenecks and genetic drift.

  57. What is your passion behind this? You seem to talk in great anger as if you need to prove something to the world Mathilda. Relax. Who cares. Race is a meaningless label that has been bringing human civilization down for years. There is only one race the human race. All of this caucasoid and negroid are empty labels of our horrid stratification system. We should embrace the accomplishment of the Egyptians as an accomplishment of the brilliance of human intellect and culture. The only divider in human beings is ignorance. We ned to embrace the varied diversity of human culture and stop with the division. If we prove that the egyptians were white or black what are we really proving? Please enlightened me with an educated answer for this question Mathilda.

    • I’m annoyed Hadiyah because whenever I post anything on North Africa I get spammed with abusive mail by black Americans who get outraged when I post papers that point out the Egyptians haven’t changed. I did this post to annoy them

      • Matilda, first off, as a black American, I can attest to the issues of Afrocentrism, which often manifests out of a reaction to Eurocentrism. But can you see it as that? No offense, I came to this site with the curiosity that probably brought a lot of folks here, but if the point is to just annoy people…well, I’d like to think you, or anyone interested in scholarship and/or education is better than that.

        With black Americans you have a people who have been traditionally taught that their global historical contribution is slave labor in the Americas, and it’s taken 200+ years for the teaching to mention more than that. Afrocentrism then seeks to counter that, again, with sometimes the very same issues (drugs, disease, unemployment, education, issues of present day are not any closer to being resolved by debates like this; Afrocentrism focuses on the past and tends to give little real time benefit). But the assertions, by most, even some of the more abusive on here, don’t come from simply seeking to be annoying.

        If all this is only a place to fight, why not take the high road and close this to comments and let people debate it with their friends and neighbors at the bar rather than actively engaging with angry people knowing what you say will not sway them, but only drive them farther from considering what you have to say?

  58. ust for the record my mother is 1/4 portugese and 3/4 afro caribbean she is dark brown, and has straight hair. I consider myself all black and I have wavy hair that has grown past the middle of my back. My youngest son looks biracial and his father is black with only traces of native american ancestry. My cousin has red hair and grey eyes like my great grand-father. To me the Egyptians are Egyptians, if they didnt build the pyramids or have a great civilization would we be fighting this fight? How about we stop being dense and try to stop global warming and save our dying planet, instead of focusing on which race is better I mean this is so juvenile.

  59. send as much info on nubians as possible or just a list of websites will suffice

  60. By the time Eurasia moved past their Iron Age, ~three quarters of Egyptian history had passed.

    Mathilda, it would appear to me that the “Eurasian” chromosomes had their origins in East and North Africa, not the other way around.

    The paradigms that your writing continues to cling to are over simplistic to say the least.

    Please research the term “confirmation bias.”

    Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons.
    —Michael Shermer, quoted in Thomas Kida’s Don’t Believe Everything You Think,[12] p. 157

    [B]eliefs can survive potent logical or empirical challenges. They can survive and even be bolstered by evidence that most uncommitted observers would agree logically demands some weakening of such beliefs. They can even survive the total destruction of their original evidential bases.
    —Lee Ross and Craig Anderson (1982). p.149[8]

    • Mathilda, it would appear to me that the “Eurasian” chromosomes had their origins in East and North Africa, not the other way around.

      To you… not to geneticists.

      I tend to side with them. And my paradigms are the standard in current genetics, you only dislike them since they don’t support a ‘black Egypt’ in the slightest.

      I’d also like to point out Eastern Europeans were building cities before Southern Egypt had agriculture, and Egypt first earned metallurgy from the Asians 2,000 years after it was in use in the Balkans. So that was a very misleading little statement you meant- trying to make Egyptians look like world technology leaders or precociously developed in writing and culture. They were neither, they were just very grand at what they did. Most of their farm animals, crops and tech showed an origin in Asia and SE Europe.

      As for your little quotes, no evidence supports a black Egypt yet people (like you) still cling to it in spit of its now biologically impossibilty (due to the modern Egytians Y chr’s). Why is that, do you think?

  61. I don’t accept the precept of a “black Egypt” or a “white Egypt” and yet you project that I do. Are you proclaiming to be some sort of psychic? You are suggesting that my credibility on the issue is skewed because I disagree with your obvious, well established, confirmation bias?

    The presuppositions you’ve offered up in this last post are more examples of what can only be termed a superficial comprehension- or casual -mostly non-academic interest in the subjects brought to light here. Human beings share their history. There is only one surviving species of human being that I am aware of. Thanks to climate and other environmental conditions, some humans in some regions developed different technologies earlier than others. Some cultures never developed those technologies at all. This is not because one culture is superior to the other- just different. Diversity is the key to life Mathilda- cooperation – trade- sharing- giving- not only Competition- and consumption- one people taking something from another- humanity is much more than this Greater than- Lesser than- paradigm brass ring so many pseudo-anthropologists are always reaching for- and failing to pass peer review by the way.

    Three quarters of Egyptian history had passed before Eurasia ( in itself an over reaching term of definition for a region of entirely distinctive peoples lumped together- founded on ?) had passed through its Iron Age.

    Three quarters of Egyptian history had run its course by the time peoples of the European portion of the Eurasian continent had emerged from the Iron Age.
    I make that statement as a matter of irrefutable fact. You come back around and attempt to spin this so that my comment is made as some sort of judgment of the respective cultures? The Iron Age is not a metaphor for Neolithic culture.
    The ancient Egyptians, my direct ancestors by the way, entered their Neolithic phase at a much earlier time than early Eurocentrics would claim. The domesticated animals and plants cultivated in the Nile Valley are mostly indigenous- unless you cherry pick to arrive at some other conclusion.
    Where does Millet originate? Teff? Doum? Donkeys? Moringa? Geese? Egyptian Cattle? Sesame? Ostrich? Oryx? Addax? -Is the Blue Water Lily from Eurasia as well?

    I run hot and cold with your blog Mathilda.
    Its disappointing to witness such an obviously intelligent person dig their heals in with such pedantry -such myopic conviction…

    The genes you discuss as having originated in Eurasia, in all likelihood, had their origins in Eastern Africa and traveled with this unique group to Southern Asia and back again through the Near East with the development of Cattle Culture.

    Your precepts of ‘race’ are exceedingly simplistic. As a native Egyptian, born in Egypt, whose ancestry is purely Egyptian- and of different indigenous ethnicity -native to Egypt and North East Africa- I find your argument consistent in its Eurocentricity.
    Irregardless of your actual objectives -the milestone you have managed you have managed to convey here is an unambiguous ethnocentrism that leans towards willful ignorance.
    Please convince us otherwise. Help me comprehend your argument through data that both supports AND refutes your theory.

  62. Malid said: “Mathilda, it would appear to me that the “Eurasian” chromosomes had their origins in East and North Africa, not the other way around.”

    I agree, but not for the his “reasons” (laugh):
    “Non-africans” — undifferentiated– first evolved in Africa. They had diverged from the ancestors of modern “black” africans before they went OOA. That means some pre-OOA “africans” were the ancestors of Scots, Chinese, and Apache, and not the ancestors of Yoruba, Igbo, Bantu et al. Afrocentrics constantly and unjustifiably reify the term Africa, as in Africa=black, when in fact great population structure existed pre-OOA. See Kenneth Kidd’s illustration.

    http://info.med.yale.edu/genetics/kkidd/point.html

  63. Upon finding out that Afrocentrists take a lot of their teachings from the loop de doop world of the nation of islam it struck me that all was right with the world when a nursing mother named Mathilda could single handedly take the lot of them.

    Deeceevoice …….. KAPOW!
    Garry ……….WHOOOMFAH!
    El ………………..KABOOM!
    Thinking………BADOOSH!
    Nefer ………… PTWANG!
    Kevin ………. FFBADOOF!

    When Hakat Re steps out of the shadows a new piece of onomatopoeia shall be constructed for the event.

    Good on ya Mathilda.

  64. I am curios about the wool wigs age? Is the wool crispy or cristalized or is it soft ? Has a fiber been analized ?

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