Tree for Y chromosome Haplogroup R

y-chrr-tree2

For my own reference from here. The Cameroon R1b marked in green.

r1b-phylo

anr1

 Also, digging out an Anatolian paper, I’m sure I saw M335 present there, location three being Armenia, I think.Very odd.  The Sudanese Copts have P25, as do the Hausa. I guess the simplest explanation would be that some  Ouldeme man ended up in Turkey at some point.

 While you get a little p25 in Turkey, there’s a dearth of it in the Jordan area- you only seem to get derived m269 there, which is what you’d expect if it took an overland route from Turkey to get to Africa. I’m suspecting the p25 (R1b1) went across the Red Sea at a fairly southerly point to get into the Northern part of the Sudan. I’m having a dig for Y chromosome information from that part of the Arabian/Yemeni coast but I’m not having much luck. Anyone who knows where I can dig out that info let me know. I’m  looking for a reasonable source for the R1b1 in East Africa, in Asia. So far I’m really only finding m269 in the fertile crescent and very low p25 in Turkey, so either the plain p25 that was ancestral to East Africa has been wiped out or it’s hiding on the East Red sea coast in a study I haven’t seen.

7 responses to “Tree for Y chromosome Haplogroup R

  1. Andrew Lancaster

    Concerning Jordan and its R population, there is a study which comments on the similarity to the Cameroon, although specifically concerning R-M173. The data is quite surprising! See http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html

  2. I guess the simplest explanation would be that some Ouldeme man ended up in Turkey at some point.

    That is the most strange and far-fetched explanation I have ever read for the high diversity of R1b in Anatolia.

    It is obvious that R1b, wich is derived from R1 and R (both of which surely from South Asia, or arguably Central Asia), had it first spread from a West Asian node, be it in Anatlolia, Armenia or Jordan (haven’t researched the details as to make up my mind yet). One branch went to Africa, another to Europe and yet another to Central Asia, maybe at different times.

    R1b1b2a1 represents the West European (and Berber) drifted result (there’s some R1b1b2* and R1b1b2a* but it’s unclear if it’s a remnant or the result of Neolithic migrations).

    R1b1c, which may well be R1b1b3 or 4, as it’s not fully clear its position in the tree represents a unique African founder effect (I’m not aware of it being detected in West Asia).

    The West Asian/SE European lineages include all the rest of the haplogroup, including the curious haplotype 35 (which is restricted to R1b1b2(xR1b1b2a1) and may be a distinct haplogroup yet to describe properly) and R1b1a (also unclear in relation to R1b1b2, maybe inside it), limited to Lebanon and Sardinia.

    While you get a little p25 in Turkey, there’s a dearth of it in the Jordan area- you only seem to get derived m269 there

    [P25 = R1b1, M269 = R1b1b2 – noted because I have a very hard time remembering markers]

    I think you are wrong in this. All or nearly all Turkish R1b is R1b1b2. Check that please.

    I’m suspecting the p25 (R1b1) went across the Red Sea at a fairly southerly point to get into the Northern part of the Sudan.

    Not likely. Tropical African R1b* and R1b1c seems an old migration still ill understood. R1b1b2 in Egypt and Sudan may well have arrived at a later stage (or maybe not).

    I’m having a dig for Y chromosome information from that part of the Arabian/Yemeni coast but I’m not having much luck.

    There’s not much stuff on peninsular Arabia but really, what I have read shows nearly no R1b there (there’s at least one open access paper on West Asian Y-DNA including peninsular Arabia, sorry if I have no time to search for it now). It’s almost all J, with some E, G and T. Peninsular Arabia was a most marginal zone in the Paleolithic and even in the Neolithic: people moving before between West Asia and Africa did it via the Sinai or its coasts.

    I’m looking for a reasonable source for the R1b1 in East Africa, in Asia.

    It’s in West Asia. Anatolia and nearby areas seem to have high diversity close to the root of R1b1b2. Notice that R1b1c, as well as R1b1a, can perfectly be R1b1b as their position in regard to M297 is still to be clarified, as per the 2009 YSOGG tree.

    If the root of R1b1b2 and R1b1b1 is in Turkey/Armenia, the root of R1b1a is in Lebanon and that of R1b1c (and unclassified African R1b*) in Sudan/Upper Egypt, we have a quite clear Middle East origin for this clade, which in any case branched out in a fast sequence lasting at most 4000 years (before 20,000 BP by my estimates, maybe close to 30,000 BP). This fast branching process includes R1a and the four high level R1b subclades; if we exclude R1a (which remained behind, in either South or Central Asia), the process was even faster, maybe 2000 years only.

    • Yes I know all that, but I can’t find a route for the p25 R1b or Oldeme R1b clade into Africa- I’ve been checking through the studies of the Levant/Egypt etc but I’m coming up clean. I had a look at the Turkish Y DNa, and only a lttle of it was P25, with just one example or m335 in Turkey.

      I think it probably came from Asia in the Neolithic (the older papers dates are alwways too recent), but I’m having a sod of a time finding the exact route into Africa.

  3. Too close to the root of R1b to be Neolithic, IMO. Anyhow we know only that much of the Paleolithc of West Asia and Africa. It is clear that several clades like mtDNA M and Y-DNA R1b back-migrated to Africa at an early date, maybe c. 20-30,000 years ago.

    For instance, you argue in another thread that Kebaran made an Africa-Levant migration, what if these migrations were not so unidirectional? Or if we haven’t just found the key culture because it lies under oceans of sand or water?

    All I can say is that we have very similar naturalist rock art in SW Europe, southern Anatolia and Upper Egypt and, as I see it, that cannot be just a coincidence: it is a cultural connection.

    One possibility I have explored is a rapid migration into Europe and from there in several directions (Gravettian, Oranian, Ballanian-Silisian, Baldibian, ). But there are many questions: low high level R1b diversity in W. Europe, demanding a too extreme drift in the LGM, lack of naturalist rock art in Oranian, etc.

    Another simpler possibility is that they are actually a radiation from West Asia, regardless of whatever connection Iberian GS and Oranian/IM have. The only problem here is that we haven’t properly located their Asian core but, considering that the spread was fast (at leas for R1b) and that West Asian Paleolithic archaeology is not too developed (conflicts, deserts, lack of institutional interest), this doesn’t seem a major objection.

    • I have to admit Y chr in Europe are not my speciality. Europeans are pretty boring- they are all so closely related that I just keep thinking-what’s the point?

  4. Well, one of the points is that we are related with other peoples from Asia and Africa by those same lineages, both Y and mtDNA. Understanding that relation helps understanding both the origins of Europeans and surely the more complex genesis of other more or less related peoples.

    I think it’s impossible to understand West Eurasia (including North Africa and Central Asia, as well as some regions beyond, like India and the Sahel) without understanding European diversity and prehistory.

    We are not so much lacking in diversity anyhow: European Y-DNA lineages include 2/2 Eurasian top tier macrohaplogroups (DE and C,F), what at that level is as much diversity as any other region in Eurasia and higher than America (that only has C,F) and South Asia (again also C,F only or almost so). Only Africa has higher diversity at that level. We know this is because of “recent” immigration ultimately original from Africa but that does not make things less diverse, even if they are somewhat less intriguing than East Asia.

    The only European Y-DNA clade that looks somewhat “boring” is I, as it can be plainly traced to West Asian origins (IJ) with no close connections beyond that point. The others (R, E and N) all have most interesting connections though Asia and Africa.

    MtDNA could be somewhat more plain, IMO, as its connections are less extense (but you have U and to some extent HV to liven things up anyhow).

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