Anyone who reads through the genetic studies of North and east Africa will notice that admixture between Eurasian and indigenous Africa groups is routinely mentioned, measuring the amount of gene flow between the two groups. E3b1 has recently been redefined as North African by Cruciani, so the older papers describing it as sub Saharan are incorrect, and a new term for it should be found.
Given its North African place of origin, M78 can no longer be attributed to a sub Saharan origin, particularly in light of the fact that it is rarely seen in sub Saharan populations without its maternal Eurasian partner M1. North Africa, circa 20,000 year ago, just prior to M78’s birth had just seen a wave of Eurasian settlers (R1b Y DNA, mtDNA types M, U, J/T, H and V) that had about 10,000 years prior wiped out the previous inhabitants as effectively as the Europeans had wiped out the Neanderthals. Who inhabited North Africa prior to this is something of a mystery, as they didn’t leave any mt or Y DNA signature in the modern population. The few very ancient remains from this area are very archaic in appearance, to the point of being misclassified as Neanderthal on occasion.
So it would seem M78 is a son of both African and Eurasian ancestry. It is particularly closely associated with the Eurasian M1 mt DNA in upper Egypt and Ethiopia, suggesting that M1 accompanied it into its journey south east, and back into Asia; something made more likely by the observation that M1 entered Africa via the North much earlier than it appeared in the South.
So this would make attempting to place M78 into Caucasian North African Y chromosome groups or typically sub Saharan groups both inaccurate and misleading. M78 is inherently a ‘mixed’ child, with ancestry from both sides. The same should probably be applied to the M1 mt DNA type in Africa. It appears to be inextricably linked with a large amount of African ancestry, and calling it ‘Eurasian’ doesn’t really reflect the ancestry of its carriers.
M78 also appears to be very closely associated with the spread of Afro-Asiatic languages; probably marking their arrival into the Levant and East Africa in ancient times.
In the light of this I would suggest that the description of Ethiopians as 40% Eurasian and 60% sub Saharan is a poor description of their ancestry, and assigning the term ‘Afro-Asiatic’ to their M78 Y chromosomes and M1 mt DNA would be more appropriate.
This would make Upper Egyptians 28.8% paternally Afro-Asiatic, and maternally 17.6% (23.2% average)Afro-Asiatic. Ethiopians would be about 38% paternally Afro-Asiatic, and maternally 17% Afro-Asiatic (27.5% average), with Somalis tracing 77.6% of their Y chromosomes to Afro-Asiatic ancestors, and 11% to Afro-Asiatic mothers (44.3% average). The difference between the Somali and Ethiopians would seem to be that Ethiopia has been more influenced by input from the Arabian area since the Neolithic. The addition of Arabian Y chromosomes has probably impacted significantly on the frequency of M78 in Ethiopia, explaining its lower frequency there than in Somalia. This won’t make much impact on the overall amount of Eurasian ancestry in Ethiopia (since I suspect the U mt DNA in Ethiopia also dates to the Afro Asiatic era). But it might suggest that Somali Eurasian ancestry is higher than thought if E3b1 is partly Asiatic in ancestry.
This would probably explain why the Somalis are the sub Saharan population with the most similarities to the Badarian Egyptian samples. They have more Afro-Asiatic ancestry, about 44%, having not experienced the Neolithic Arabic population expansion to the same degree, and with less Bantu contribution. A few of the older sources have described some of the Badari crania (and modern Upper Egyptians too) as being similar to some Somalian skulls. Which would hardly be surprising as Somalis retain a large signature from the expansion from Egypt, plus a significant amount of mostly east African DNA (about 43%, mostly maternal) and a little Arabian ancestry (overall about 13%). Although, whether this would mean Somalis look a bit like very ancient upper Egyptians or vice versa is a POV issue.
Mathilda's Anthropology Blog. 
I especially liked the bit, “had about 10,000 years prior wiped out the previous inhabitants as effectively as the Europeans had wiped out the Neanderthals”.
However claiming that those “Who inhabited North Africa prior to this is something of a mystery, as they didn’t leave any appreciable DNA signature in the modern population” is more problematic. Certainly none of their Y-chromosomes or mtDNA survives but we can be fairly sure other of their genes survive, just as it’s possible Neanderthal genes, other than their haplogroups, survives.
That M78 had a sub Saharan ancestor does not make it sub Saharan.
And it’s E3b1, not E3b.
It’s parent population was nearly all Eurasian for Mt. No L haplotypes seem to have been carried around with it, unlike M1 and U (both originally Eurasian),
I should have typed ‘in relation to the amount of E3b1’, for the pedants among us.
That at the very tail end of a migration (kenya, at a low by your defintion 15%) a Y chromosome becomes seperated from it’s original mt partner (m1) isnt odd. Y chromosomes are usually more mobile that Mt DNA. Still, it managed to drag a fair amount of M1 with it as far as Somalia (11%). It dragged M1 up into Asia with it as well (‘Gate of tears ‘paper).
Caucasia?
Afro Asiatic is a description of the original founder population. Eurasian mt DNA (U and M1) and E3b African father, m78 mixed ancestry son. Essentially, you are trying to ‘ethnically cleanse’ it of it’s Eurasian mothers. Is it because you want to claim a lower level of Eurasian ancestry in places like Ethiopia and Egypt? Is that distasteful in some way?
My motive for this was to point out that the origin point for M78 was in a mixed population that is a very likley candidate for the origin of the Afro Asiatic languages.
BTW, all the Holocene North African DNA sampled so far is Eurasian, and the Nubian mummy DNA samples are mainly Eurasian too, so trying to claim that the Eurasian component is recent would be ludicrous.
The Mechtoid Saharan people from Algeria to Mali and Egypt were essentially a blend of ancestries of varying proportions. Call the language and ancestry ‘Saharan’ if you feel more comfortable with it, you still won’t remove the fact the m78 is a ‘mixed’ ancestry marker from a ‘mixed ancestry’ area. Essentially, Afro and Asiatic.
Spotted I was making a point about the neanderthals then, Terry.
Just to clarify a few things, Hassan et al. (2008) state quite clearly that:
1)E1b1b sub-clades were “brought to Sudan from North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000–8,000 years ago” (which is how the Masalit & Fur acquired it in the first place).
2)That this gene flow was recent (Holocene onward).
3)That this gene flow is focally as opposed to clinally distributed i.e. focused in a few ethnic groups in the North and West.
4)Nilo-Saharan groups were for the most part not affected by this gene flow: “most speakers of Nilo-Saharan languages, the major linguistic family spoken in the country, show very little evidence of gene flow and demonstrate low migration rate, with exception of the Nubians, who appear to have sustained considerable gene flow from Asia and Europe together with the Beja”.
Cruciani et al. (2004) likewise attribute the small presence of E1b1b chromosomes in the Kenyan Bantu to unidirectional admixture with Horn Africans:
“For example, we found E-M35* and E-M78 chromosomes in Bantu-speaking populations from Kenya (14.3%) but not in those living in central Africa (Cruciani et al. 2002), the area in which the Bantu expansion originated. In agreement with mtDNA data (Salas et al. 2002), this finding suggests a relevant contribution of eastern African peoples to the gene pool of the eastern Bantu.”
Lastly, the so-called “Kenyan” Borana Oromos aren’t Kenyan at all, but recent arrivals to that country’s northernmost region. They migrated there from Ethiopia in the sixteenth century.
Also, the frequency of M1 in Somalis is likely much higher than previously reported. In 2005, Holden et al. presented before the Program of the Seventy-Fourth Annual Meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists a study which observed a frequency of over 20% of M1 in its Somali sample set. Here’s the abstract:
“The general timeline for human occupation of Africa has been studied extensively. However, questions involving Upper Palaeolithic migrations still persist. One remaining question is the presence of the mitochondrial M1 haplogroup in North and East Africa. Some (Quintana-Murci et al. 2004, 1999) argue that the presence of M1 in modern Africans is a remnant of the original M haplogroup that left Africa 60 kya via the Horn of Africa. Others (Forster, 2004) propose that it is instead the result of a back-migration from the Arabian Peninsula from 20 kya. This research aims to test these two competing hypotheses.
We analysed mtDNA variation in ~250 persons from Libya, Somalia, and Congo/Zambia, as representatives of the three regions of interest. Our initial results indicate a sharp cline in M1 frequencies that generally does not extend into sub-Saharan Africa. While our North and especially East African samples contained frequencies of M1 over 20%, our sub-Saharan samples consisted almost entirely of the L1 or L2 haplogroups only. In addition, there existed a significant amount of homogeneity within the M1 haplogroup.
This sharp cline indicates a history of little admixture between these regions. This could imply a more recent ancestry for M1 in Africa, as older lineages are more diverse and widespread by nature, and may be an indication of a back-migration into Africa from the Middle East. Further research on this topic includes more extensive population samples from the Middle East, as well as possible correlations of M1 to the Afro-Asiatic language family.”
And Gonzalez et al. (2007) have of course since identified the place of origin of mtDNA haplogroup M in Asia.
Thanks Xerxes, very useful. I may have to post that later on.
I figured that the Kenyan AA contribution was from the Horn, and pretty recent.
Please feel free to post the names of any studies that you feel I should read to understand this area better. I’d be grateful for the help.
I’m going to have to do a written piece on the East/north Afrcan E Y chr’s to simplfy the whole thing for my own future reference. The info is spread over too many sources and is a bit unwieldly.
“Ethiopians would seem to be that Ethiopia has been more influenced by input from the Arabian area since the Neolithic. The addition of Arabian Y chromosomes has probably impacted significantly on the frequency of M78 in Ethiopia”
This assumption is wrong and dangerous. There is no significant Arabian input in Ethiopia. In fact, it’s the other way around. Even all the languages of Arabia, Hebrew and Berber do have their origin in Ethiopia. These languages came out of Ethiopia 10.000 years ago.
I think the DNA studies of Ethiopia might disagree with that. They show a reasonably high level of immigration from the Arabian peninsula, particularly in the Amhara.
“the Ethiopian Y chromosomes that fall into Groups VI, VIII, and IX may be explained by back migrations from Asia”.
Also, Where did you read that those languages are Ethiopian in origin and only 10k old? They aren’t. Probably North East Africa, according to the expansion of m78. ALso, the seperation of the languages is thought to be a lot older than 10k (Keita).
Er, no. The m78 in SE Europe is a type not seen Africa. It’s been through a bottle neck, and has lost any ‘African’ tag. A few multiple loci studies have found SE Europeans to be entirely European in character, they have only a VERY low amount of African ancestry. The ancestry that moved into west Asia was about half Eurasian, and the M78 you see in Europe is specific to SE Europe. It seems only one m78 Afro Asiatic Y chr carrier made the move into Europe. It’s son is all Eurasian.
A good comparison would be the R1b in the Ouldeme and in Cameroon, at 95% and 40%. A quick look at them will tell you there is no way that the Ouldeme are half Eurasian. I’d put good money on the R1b in west Africans being a mutation specific to them, probably dating back at least 12k. It’s not a sign of a large amount of Eurasian ancestry, any more than the M78 in SE Europe is a relic of some large African population movement into Europe.
There comes a point when using Y and Mt DNA as indicators of admixture breaks down. I’m using Cavalli Sforzas work on East Africans for reference, not Y/mt DNA proportions. If you regard the M78/m/u as a carrier of joint Afro-Eurasian ancestry, it brings the Eurasian ancestry a lot closer to his amounts using mutiple genes (Fst) than the old Y/mt DNA scenarios did. Which are 47% Caucasiod for Tigre, 44% for Cushitic, and 43% for Amhara. (ref.The History and Geography of Human Genes, pg 174). And no, Keita didn’t debunk this. He just insisted they should all be regarded as ‘African’, and that everyone should ignore underlying poulation structures essentially because all the DNA studies ‘de-Africanised’ Ethiopians and it annoyed him. His claim that this was a ‘persistance of racial thinking’ is quite funny bearing in mind that both Brace and cavalli Sforza are known ‘no race’ supporters. According to Keita we are racist if we observe that Y and Mt DNA from outside Africa moved back in.
There’s just as much to back an ancient Eurasian origin for Afro Asiatic, it could have arrived with he M/U and R1b. Both Afro and Asiatic ancestries were present in the upper Egypt area 25k ago. That far back, we’ll never know.
Mathilda, Egyptians are genetically more related to Ethiopians than other North African non-Berber populations. Both people, not only had a very close historical relationship, but they also were/are destined to share the river Nile by consuming the same soil for thousands of years. When it comes to Arabia, South-Arabia (Yemen), this particular region had been under the Ethiopian influence for many years. We all always hear how the Sabaens of present day Yemen had influence on the Ethiopian civilization, bla bla…Ethiopians know that this sort of Eurocentric interpretation was always wrong. For the outside world, the recent discovery of the Palace that belonged to the famous Queen of Sheba at Axum shows that. It’s not that sophisticated satellite-guided machine who was able to trace these historic archaeological sites, but the local ‘illiterate’ boys and girls who happened to know what wa going on in their surrounding, some 3.000 years ago. When Ethiopians say that they are ancestors of Sem, Ham and Yaphet, one has to simply believe them. The world, even the science world, is not yet ready to find out the truth. The difference between the Amharas, Tigres, Oromos and other Ethiopians, is just a linguistical one.
It’s true, and both historic and archaeological evidence indicate tight cultural connections, over millennia, between East Africa and South Arabia. The Ethiopian and Yemeni genetic heritage is very complex. And it’s now known that the maternal lineages were introduced into the South Arabian gene pool from different source populations of East Africa.
Concerning the East African origin of Arabic, a couple of years ago, analysis of thousands of mitochondrial DNA samples has led Estonian archeogeneticists to the origins of Arabic. Ene Metspalu of the Department of Evolutionary Biology at Tartu University and the Estonian Biocentre in Tartu, claims to have evidence that the Arab-Berber languages of the Near and Middle East came out of East Africa around 10,000 years ago. She has found evidence for what may have been the last sizeable migration out of Africa before the slave trade.
Egyptians are related to Ethiopians true. They are also related to Europeans. As are Ethiopians, who are genetically very close to European, observed every time there’s any DNA study on them.
African ancestry in Yemen is mainly maternal, not something you see if an area is being dominated by another area. It’s thought to be mainly from Moslems buying female Ethiopian slaves in historic times.
And No, Arabic/Afro Asiaitic hasn’t been proved to come from East Africa, or anywhere. It’s WAY older than 10-12k too.
You know, the real issue isn’t that Ethiopians have a lot of Eurasian ancestry in them. This has been shown time and time again in a myriad of DNA studies.
The issue is why do so many Africans and black Americans find this fact so offensive?. Racism would be my guess, with the issue that the only big ancient civillisations in Africa that Afrocentrists want to claim have been shown to have a major amount of Eurasian ancestry in them, or only measure up closely to partly Eurasian groups like Ethiopians and Somalis.
Hey Tom.
Spear me the Bull. What I find to be very ironic is when the so called Experts are always trying to somehow connect themselves to us. We have NOTHING in common with the Ethiopians. Just because we’re in the same continent does not make us related to any Sub_Saharan. And I’m getting annoyed with the American Negroids, because thats where all this Illusions are coming from.
Dear Mr. Pharanon, that doesn’t change the fact that Egypt was an Ethiopian colony, and Egyptians in general, Ethiopian slaves — and there fate was/is entirely dependent on Ethiopia and Ethiopians — both spiritually and materially. Remember the Pharaohs teaching you that Ethiopia is the land of the GODs? Or you may need another proof so that the God of the Ethiopians shows you how He controls nature from Ethiopia?
Please follow the link..
http://touregypt.net/teblog/egyptologynews/?p=1890
Tom, you’re a bit mad, but at least your polite. 🙂
Hey Tom..
My Ancestors never played 2nd fiddle to anyone, And we certainly didn’t come from any Ethiopian colony.
Ethiopia isn’t any Land of any Gods, What an Illusionary Story you people are making up..
“The myrrh of Punt has been brought to me … all the luxurious marvels of this country were brought to my palace in one collection … They have brought me the choicest products … of cedar, of juniper and of meru-wood; … all the goodly sweet woods of God’s Land.” Bryant G. Wood, Egyptian Amphorae in BA, June 1987, p. 75-(77)-83
“Sailing in the sea, beginning the godly way toward God’s Land, journeying in peace to the land of Punt…according to the command … of Amon … because he so much loves the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, [Makere, Hatshepsut].”
The Land OF the Gods is Phoenicia, Also known as Lebanon.
You American Negroids are delusional, Always thinking of some new way to make up Phony stories about us..
All these things that I have mentioned above come from Lebanon. meru-wood and cedar come from the mountains of Lebanon.
I Ask you this..Name me one tree that grows in Ethiopia?
My Friend,Maybe you can try and pull this on someone else who doesn’t know about Egypt or Ethiopia. Also, In case you didn’t know, The Nile River was moved a few times by the Pharaohs.
I’m An Egyptian, And I do NOT look like anyone from the Sub Sahara. Fact is, We are the only people in the world that have wide Eyes with Very long Eye_Lashes, And our eyes are very Bright Brown.
Ethiopian, Do NOT look anything like us..
Technically, there’s a large portion of Egyptian in Ethiopians, if this Egyptian origin of of m78 is correct. 😉
Nice quote, complete with reference. Nice job on that Pharaon. Your English is improving too.
It was a quote from Hatshepsut, I think. It’s an Afrocentrist delucion that Punt was in Ethiopia. There are numerous quotes placing it in Syria/Lebanon area, with Byblos being specifically mentioned.
You should check out this google book link for a list of Punt references. And this one too.
Cedar; not renowned for growing in Ethiopia, it’s true.
I just took a look at the wiki entry for this. Afrocentrists have been lying on the page again. All the masses of descriptions place Byblos in Punt (Phoenicia) to the east and in Asia. They’ve tried to say it was in East Africa. Typical.
Thanks mathilda, These are very kind words. I’m always trying to better myself with whatever I do to try and sustain some sort of knowledge, While I live in this world!!
Many Egyptians went south to escape The Islamic prosecution’s during the Christan Era, And thats how many Ethiopians became Christians.
Besides all of that..The Ancient Egyptians drove south and conquered most of these southern nations.
Then I took (?)] a troop of my estate, and 100 asses with me, bearing ointment, honey, clothing, oil (THnt) and [///] of every sack, in order to [make presents (?)] [in] these countries [and I went out to (?)] these countries of the Negroes. ///// [Then I sent (?)] people who were in the door, and I made letters to give information that I had gone out to bring this my father from Wawat (wAwA.t) and Utheth (wTT). I pacified these countries ///// [in (?)] the countries of [///] the name of which is Mether (mTr). I loaded (?)] the body of this sole companion upon an ass, and I had him carried by the troop of my estate. I made for him a coffin ///// I brought [///] /// /// /// /// in order to bring him out of these countries. Never did I send [///] or any Negro-caravan //////. I was greatly praised on account of it. (Inscriptions of Sebni, 6th dynasty – J. H. Breasted)
Here’s More Evidence..
I have made my boundary further south than my fathers, I have added to what was bequeathed me. I am a king who speaks and acts, what my heart plans is done by my arm. One who attacks to conquer, who is swift to succeed, in whose heart a plan does not slumber. Considerate to clients, steady in mercy, merciless to the foe who attacks him. One who attacks him who would attack, who stops when one stops, who replies to a matter as befits it. To stop when attacked is to make bold the foe’s heart, attack is valor, retreat is cowardice, a coward is he who is driven from his border. Since the Nubian listens to the word of mouth, to answer him is to make him retreat. Attack him, he will turn his back, retreat, he will start attacking. They are not people one respects. They are wretches, craven-hearted. My majesty has seen it, it is not an untruth. I have captured their women, I have carried off their subjects, went to their wells, killed their cattle, cut down their grain, set fire to it. As my father lives for me, I speak the truth! It is no boast that comes from my mouth. (Semna Stela year 16 – W.M.Flinders Petrie A History of Egypt, Part One, page 188)
“He hath overthrown the chief of the Nubians, the black is helpless, defenseless in his grasp. He hath united the boundaries of his two sides, there is not a remnant among the curly-haired who can come attack him. There is not a single survivor among them. The Nubian troglodytes fall by the sword and are thrust aside in their lands. Their foulness, it floods their valley and their mouths like a violent flood, the fragments cut from them are too much for the birds, carrying off the prey to another place.” (Tombos Stela of Thutmose I; “We Can’t Go Home Again” – Clarence Walker 2001; “Ancient Egypt” – David P Silverman, 2003)
Hello Mathilda, Hi Pharaon!
There is no any doubt the land of Punt lies in the Northern part of Ethiopia — present day Erithrea. Where in Lebanon do you find “Frankincense, Myrrh and Gold?” And Hatshesput sailed downwards accros the Red Sea to see the land of her Gods.
I think Herodotus once said: “All Egypt is a gift of the Nile.” why don’t you start deprogramming your mind which is obviously filled with loads of prejudices.
I was travelling in a train when I saw a black guy going to the WC. When he came out, one of the gypsy girls who were in the train wanted to go to the WC, but one of her freinds tell her please don’t go, you might get pregnant with a black baby. I just laughed to watch how illitrate and backward people fail to know who they are. I know a lot of nice Coptic Egyptians, but many of you still seem to exsit in some kind extraterrestrial world. You speak Arabic, accept the faith of nomad Arabs, you even call your God Allah, despite having the luxury of being Christians earlier than others. Do you think it is a good quality for a nation to accept every garbage that comes on its way?
I know it is a crazy world. And the stigma attached to being Black is so unpalatable for some folks like you that it causes them to spazz.
I guess that when you have been raised to feel smugly & condescendingly superior to someone not even considered HUE-MAN then find yourself in the same boat it is rather mind blowing.
When folks prefer to live in a state of denial, their minds are reprobated & they will not be moved. They will twist your words, intentionally take things out of context, and vilify you in an effort to hold onto their delusions of superiority rather than embrace the Black Man as “brother”…or equal. Cain will continue to destroy Abel until God’s day of reckoning.
If you have a look at the text books, theres close on a dozen references that explicity put Punt in Asia, with Byblos in it.
I’ve been looking for that stela inscription. Thanks
Tom… cedar doesn’t grow in Ethiopia. There are mutliple Egyptian sources that describe Punt as being to the East in Asia, across the Asian marshes, around or near Byblos etc.
They did use to produce both Frankincense and Myrhh along the Med coast. You should have a look at the book links, they show a lot of text on the descriptions of Punt.
astenb
My Friend, why do you LIE? Where did the Pharaohs depicted us as the Nubians? Why would My Ancestors use the world “Black” IF we were the same as the Nubians? I mean try to think and use some logic before you babel and lie and make yourself look foolish.
I gave you a direct quote from (Tombos Stela of Thutmose I; “We Can’t Go Home Again” – Clarence Walker 2001; “Ancient Egypt” – David P Silverman, 2003)
Why do you continue and lie? Look, your dam Opinion does NOT matter.
Your SICK in the head..And No, we are not the same as anyone in the Sub_Saharan.
I have made my boundary further south than my fathers, I have added to what was bequeathed me. I am a king who speaks and acts, what my heart plans is done by my arm. One who attacks to conquer, who is swift to succeed, in whose heart a plan does not slumber. Considerate to clients, steady in mercy, merciless to the foe who attacks him. One who attacks him who would attack, who stops when one stops, who replies to a matter as befits it. To stop when attacked is to make bold the foe’s heart, attack is valor, retreat is cowardice, a coward is he who is driven from his border. Since the Nubian listens to the word of mouth, to answer him is to make him retreat. Attack him, he will turn his back, retreat, he will start attacking. They are not people one respects. They are wretches, craven-hearted. My majesty has seen it, it is not an untruth. I have captured their women, I have carried off their subjects, went to their wells, killed their cattle, cut down their grain, set fire to it. As my father lives for me, I speak the truth! It is no boast that comes from my mouth. (Semna Stela year 16 – W.M.Flinders Petrie A History of Egypt, Part One, page 188)
“Southern boundary, made in the year 8, under the majesty of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Sesostris III, … in order to prevent that any Negro should cross it, by water or by land, with a ship, or any herds of the Negroes; except a Negro who shall come to do trading in Iken, or with a commission. Every good thing shall be done with them but without allowing a ship of the Negroes to pass by Heh, going down stream, forever.” (Semna Stela, year 8)
Here again…”to prevent that any Negro should cross” If Egyptians were Negroids they would not be using this terminology against fellow Negroids. Compared to the Negroids, they were rather relaxed on letting neighbors from the north enter Egypt more so than Negroids from the south!
Hey mathilda37, when you get a chance Please can you try and find out why The mDNA Haplogroup T reaches a high frequency in Ireland and it has an Egyptian connection, There is a history between Egypt and Ireland.
I wish someone would make the DNA public so we could investigate this connection further.
Be polite Pharaon.
But yes, some quite notable black Americans have come out and said Afrocentrism is an absolute steaming heap.
You do know your stelae. What’s your source?
I’ll have a look at the Mt DNA type T. Generally I focus on North/East Africa and Turkey, but I’ll se what I can dredge up. I seem to recall there’s some e3b1 in Wales though…
mathilda
Yes, your right I will try to be a little nicer next time. It’s I get very aggravated at times when people try pick you apart as IF your not capable of knowing who we are. I hate when these Black Afrocentric groups are trying label us as part of their people when we’re NOT. I have Nothing against them or any Black race. I come from a very rich civilization and I’ll be dammed IF hand over my Ancestors Accomplishments.
Mathilda, I was surprised at your skewed belief for the location of Punt. What a fine filter you sift through when you search. You have proven yourself to be a very good researcher of sorts and have shown that you can have somewhat of an open mind when it comes to the peopling of Northeast and East Africa. But, Byblos being the location of Punt is utterly ridiculous and in my opinion, borders belligerence… One thing that I noticed that you like to often do, is dismiss authentic photos of ancient Egyptian reference – completely ignoring them if they suggest significant Sub-Saharan physiognomy. A clue to what I believe is the root of your relentless plea for Eurasian dominance in a rather insistently diverse part of the world. Back to punt or “Ta Netjer” (“The Land of God”)…
If this post even makes it on here, the urls to the images below are all taken from the Temple of Hatshepsut in Del el Bahri. They show and prove the East African suggestion for the location of Punt and NOT Byblos or anywhere near Lebanon, as anyone (expert or not) can clearly see that no evidence of Bylos lies in the visual representations. Any Egyptologist who thinks otherwise more than likely has the same contempt for things Sub-Saharan as you do. My advice… If you truly care about credibility and the believability of all the painstaking research and commentary that you’ve deposited thus far (concerning race, the Egyptians and their southern neighbors), then I suggest you open your mind a lot more than you have done thus far and start showing some respect for the particular pieces of art and other evidence that the ancients have provided for us (i.e. those that are not Caucasian specific). It is the least that you could do being the intelligent woman that you are.
As far as the journey to Punt, to set sail from Quseir on the Red Sea is not the smartest route to Byblos, Mathilda and I’m sure even you won’t argue that point. Also, ivory, Giraffes, Hippopotamus, Cynocephalus baboons and Pygmies were all documented as being brought back from Punt (during Hatshepsut’s expedition), and are not things generally assosiated with the Lebanese coast. But, I’m sure if you google hard enough, you’ll find that some moron placed an article out there that will dispute that (chuckles). Then again, maybe there’s evidence to support genetic “back flow” for the animals listed. 😉
Photos…
The Queen of Punt (image) which Hatshepsut herself refered to as her “sister” (for diplomatic reasons):
Cone shaped huts on stilts: (Ahh, so reminiscent of Byblos and the Eastern Med – lol)
Expediton to Punt: (reconstructed image)
Baboons and Frankenscense: (reconstructed image)
Baboons and Hippopotamus:
Rings of gold and heaps of myrr: (where else in Africa were gold rings like this common?)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/2714171912_9129c08178.jpg?v=0
This excerpt regarding Punt is from touregypt which is NOT an Afrocentric site by any stretch.
“It has been suggested that Punt, because of its exotic “overseas” character, might be as far away as Somalia, Yemen or even the Horn of Africa. However, many modern Egyptologists place Punt much nearer to Egypt. We known that some of Punt’s treasures were carried over land by way of Nmay and Irem (through the modern Sudan). We also here of the children of the chiefs of Punt that were raised at the Egyptian court alongside the children of Kush (Nubia) and Irem. Therefore, it has been assumed that Punt was not so far away, and most modern scholars place it perhaps on Africa’s East Coast perhaps only just south of Egypt. Furthermore, modern attempts to classify flora and fauna suggests that Punt may have been located in the southern Sudan or the Eritrean region of Ethiopia. Yet this would place Punt to the east of Nubia and there is no evidence of military conflict between Punt and Egypt, as there was between Egypt and Nubia.”
From ancient-egypt.org… (another non-Afrocentric site):
“The products brought back to Egypt point to an African origin: giraffes, pygmies, baboons, myrrh, … excluding south east Arabia, as has sometimes been suggested. Thus Punt must have been located somewhere along the African shores of the Red Sea, perhaps south Sudan or north Ethiopia.”
By the way… since you’ve been in a googling mood lately, have you read “The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor?” You might want to check that out. From 2200 bc Egypt… and another reference to where Punt is. Enjoy…
Mathilda, I was quite surprised at your skewed beliefs for the location of Punt. What a fine filter you sift through when you search. You have proven yourself to be a very good researcher of sorts and have shown that you can have somewhat of an open mind when it comes to the peopling of Northeast and East Africa. But, Byblos being the location of Punt is utterly ridiculous and in my opinion, borders belligerence… One thing that I noticed that you like to often do, is dismiss authentic photos of ancient Egyptian reference – completely ignoring them if they suggest significant Sub-Saharan physiognomy. A clue to what I believe is the root of your relentless plea for Eurasian dominance in a rather insistently diverse part of the world. Back to punt or “Ta Netjer” (“The Land of God”)…
If this post even makes it on here, the urls to the images below are all taken from the Temple of Hatshepsut in Del el Bahri. They show and prove the East African suggestion for the location of Punt and NOT Byblos or anywhere near Lebanon, as anyone (expert or not) can clearly see that no evidence of Bylos lies in the visual representations. Any Egyptologist who thinks otherwise more than likely has the same contempt for things Sub-Saharan as you do. My advice… If you truly care about credibility and the believability of all the painstaking research and commentary that you’ve deposited thus far (concerning race, the Egyptians and their southern neighbors), then I suggest you open your mind a lot more than you have done thus far and start showing some respect for the particular pieces of art and other evidence that the ancients have provided for us (i.e. those that are not Caucasian specific). It is the least that you could do being the intelligent woman that you are.
As far as the journey to Punt, to set sail from Quseir on the Red Sea is not the smartest route to Byblos, Mathilda and I’m sure even you won’t argue that point. Also, ivory, Giraffes, Hippopotamus, Cynocephalus baboons and Pygmies were all documented as being brought back from Punt (during Hatshepsut’s expedition), and are not things generally assosiated with the Lebanese coast. But, I’m sure if you google hard enough, you’ll find that some moron placed an article out there that will dispute that (chuckles). Then again, maybe there’s evidence to support genetic “back flow” for the animals listed. 😉
This excerpt regarding Punt is from touregypt which is NOT an Afrocentric site by any stretch.
“It has been suggested that Punt, because of its exotic “overseas” character, might be as far away as Somalia, Yemen or even the Horn of Africa. However, many modern Egyptologists place Punt much nearer to Egypt. We known that some of Punt’s treasures were carried over land by way of Nmay and Irem (through the modern Sudan). We also here of the children of the chiefs of Punt that were raised at the Egyptian court alongside the children of Kush (Nubia) and Irem. Therefore, it has been assumed that Punt was not so far away, and most modern scholars place it perhaps on Africa’s East Coast perhaps only just south of Egypt. Furthermore, modern attempts to classify flora and fauna suggests that Punt may have been located in the southern Sudan or the Eritrean region of Ethiopia. Yet this would place Punt to the east of Nubia and there is no evidence of military conflict between Punt and Egypt, as there was between Egypt and Nubia.”
From ancient-egypt.org… (another non-Afrocentric site):
“The products brought back to Egypt point to an African origin: giraffes, pygmies, baboons, myrrh, … excluding south east Arabia, as has sometimes been suggested. Thus Punt must have been located somewhere along the African shores of the Red Sea, perhaps south Sudan or north Ethiopia.”
By the way… since you’ve been in a googling mood lately, have you read “The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor?” You might want to check that out. From 2200 bc Egypt… and another reference to where Punt is. Enjoy…
‘If this post even makes it on here, the urls to the images below are all taken from the Temple of Hatshepsut in Del el Bahri. They show and prove the East African suggestion for the location of Punt.’
Sigh… of course I could not post the urls with the previous comment because the blog must be set up to automatically block urls with the .jpg extension. Nice censorship move (keeps things in perspective, doesn’t it?). Apparently, my opinion of you having contempt for non-caucasian visual art references are more true than I thought. You should know me by now, Mathilda. I am no Afrocentrist. Photos from Punt, Egypt or anywhere else in Africa really shouldn’t scare you or cause you so much concern. If an Afrocentric idiot tries to post something you don’t agree with, just don’t approve that post. Why block images altogether? That doesn’t seem to make very much sense.
WordPress has an over-zealous filter for links. I’m always having to rescue stuff from the spam bin.
It’s not something I’ve done Hakat. It sends all linked comments to the bin. The simple way around it is to put an asterisk in front of the http to kill the link but leave the address (trick learned from Astenub, as it goes).
I can’t post images in the comments either, I have tried.
I’m sorry, but all comments need to be checked by me daily. Have you ever had anything dropped? NO, it just takes a while to clear. The old system just let too much crud through.
Yes I know the logic behind both East Africa and the Near East as locations. There are just more descriptions of Punt that suggest the near East than East Africa. But you’ll really only see them in text books.
All the ‘African’ animals used to be found in the near East at that time. And I got that from a text book discussing the location of Punt. You didn’t get myrhh terraces in East Africa (which are mentioned repeatedly) but you did in the near East, and one description specifically mentions it as being in across the Asian marshes, and others describe visiting Punt and Byblos in the same journey which isn’t likely if Punt was in East Africa (Byblos was in the near east). Also Byblos is the city of Hathor, and the city of Hathor was in Punt. Not to mention that the god Min was worshiped widely from Punt to upper Egypt, and he is known to have been worshipped in the NE from a biblical reference. Also, upper Egypt to Punt (if Punt was in E Africa) would have left out Lower Egypt.
I looked at the info as a whole a while a go; about twice as much in favour of the near east by counting up the descriptions.I shall have do do a ‘for and against’ post one day with them all listed.
It really was just the animals that suggested an African location, and it turns out that they were recorded to be in the near East in classical times. You have to remember, elephants, ostriches, rhinos, giraffes etc all roamed all around the South Med once. Really the only ‘African’ factor is the ebony. And we know that got sent from the E African coast to the near East by the boatload.
BTW, that’s a baboon and an Asiatic one horned rhino, not a hippo.
“Baboons and Hippopotamus:
http://www.maat-ka-ra.de/pictures/punt/pavian.jpg “
I posted something and don’t know IF it went through!!
Mathilda, I hear you but, I’m not buying it. Unfortunately, I don’t have time at the moment to share what I need to. All I’m going to say at the time being is, Your fight for an Eastern Med location for Punt is extremely similar to the whole of the racial debates surrounding the “peopling” of Egypt (ancient and modern). That is: So much visual and documented evidence that has surfaced in favor of African diversity yet repeatedly and consistently IGNORED. What’s next? Cheetahs and Rhinos being of Lebanese origin also? Let’s see how many of your “teacher’s pet-like contributors” here will back you up on that…
There’s a 2003 book called ‘Mysterious Lands’ that goes through all the evidence for Punt for a fine toothed comb. East Africa come out an poor second, it’s main supporting evidence is really just the wildlife in the Hatshepsut reliefs. The bulk of textual info goes against it. The ‘Red Sea’ route is equally valid for the Jordan to Yemen area. You can go quite a way into Jordan by sea.
Puntites are called ‘Sand-dwellers’, a term used to describe the Bedouin and other Arabian Asiatics.
From the Court of Cachette at Karnak, from the reign of Ramses III, describing the cardinal points of the compass..
Punt is repeatedly described as being east, and associated with the Arabian/near East area quite strongly. Most of the incense they tested from Egypt shows and Arabian not African source. In fact, Nubian/African incense is described as unfit for ritual purposes in one temple inscription, and the main point of the trip to Punt was for a source of ritual incenses.
And one specific area descibed as being in Punt, Fek-Heret (Turqoise producing), was in Sinai/Asia. It’s described as being at ‘the height of the land in Punt’ (it’s very mountainous there), and between Byblos and Cyprus.
The Qesenet country also made up part of the Puntish territory. It’s inhabitants the Qesentyu were classified as Asiatic from an inscription at the temple treasury at Edfu.
Also war inscriptions describe Amun opening the roads of Punt during an Asiatic campaign, during the reign of of Seti II. The whole tale of this is a buit complicated, but Amu, a territory in Punt, is clearly named as Bedouin in another text.
I think don’t Punt was a country, it was an area/land.
Also, that Hatshepust relief doesn’t just have Puntite people/animals on it, if I remember right. It specifcally says that they gave her stuff (panther and people) from ‘the southern land’, not from Punt, as exotic gifts. If it reached as far as Yemen they would have had easy access to goods from the Horn of Africa.
There are other reliefs showing Puntites looking halfway between Asiatic and Egyptian norms (Rehkmire) as well as dark. That mix of dark and light people you’ll see along the East side of the Red Sea as well as in Egypt. I support Punt as more likely from Israel/Jordan down into the Yemen area. Which would explain why Hat. says her southern border is as far south as Punt. It was as far south as that if Punt reached as far South as the middle of the Arabian peninsula. Otherwise your looking at Egypt reaching into East Africa, and it never did.
Asiatic Rhinos occured into the Near East, hippos were also recorded in the Gallilee area, and giraffes and ostriches known in the Near East in the classical era. Just because they’ve been wiped out in that area now doesn’t mean they weren’t there a few thousand years ago. All the savannah animals used to be seen in the Arabian peninsula.
Mathilda, I gotta hand it to you… You are one analytical broad. You really are a die-hard Caucasian/Eurasian fanatic and I’m an advocate of racial diversity who celebrates ALL peoples’ accomplishments. I would never discount what I saw as irrefutable visual proof from the historical account of a people, regardless of their ethnicity but, I guess that’s the difference between me and you, dear. With Punt, you just don’t get it… I don’t need to go into the style of dress for Queen Eti, her husband and courtiers, or even the fact that sailing from Quseir on the Red Sea would not have gotten you to Byblos, since the Suez Canal didn’t exist at the time (btw, you didn’t elaborate on the huts on stilts yet. Why not? -lol) Your argument for inner African animals being native to the Lebanese coast was entertaining tho but, no…
There is however, such a place called PUNTLAND. Even tho the EXACT location for Punt has not been determined for certain, most of the evidence (visual and literary) suggests the Horn of Africa (despite your quite “classicist” query), and specifically where present-day Puntland is… hence the name. You’d have a hard time convincing most anthropologists/archaeologists from there that Punt was anywhere else. You can deny the images, the native locale for the animals and the African huts all you want, love. The excerpt you posted that states African incense as being “unfit for ritual purposes” is a joke since the lands in question including Kush and beyond have always been regarded as “God’s land” i.e. the lands South of Egypt, “up the Nile.”
I’m sure you saw the Queen of Punt depicted in the images you’ve searched yet, somehow you saw anything but the black African woman that she was… bringing the dark-skinned bedouins from the other side of the Red Sea into the conversation to excuse away the dark-brown and rather obese Queen of Punt. Yep, straight from the walls of Hatshepsut’s temple in Del el Bahri, and the paint has not yet completely worn off yet and you deny it all. The fact of the matter is, you simply have something against non-Caucasoids (it’s just too apparent in everything you say, write and fundmentally believe).
You are hard pressed to yield to any evidence, visual, documented or otherwise that undoubtely shows and proves differently. That’s why you will only promote theories, articles, geneticists and other scholarly individuals that do the same (ignore and discount any cultural contributions from those who are not prodominantly Caucasian/Eurasian/Indo-Asiatic). It’s all in the way you rebutt. It’s almost like it’s painful for you admit things that aren’t Caucasian. Why? What has happened in your past that made you so abhorently opposed to black African contributions to East and Northeast African culture and Near East civilizations, to go to the extent that you do to deny so much?
Mathilda, with regards to Punt, I don’t need references for baboons and cheetahs (we know where these gifts came from but, I will ask you in all kindness for something that shows rhinos and giraffes (as in thriving naturally in a native habitat/environment) anywhere near the Eastern Mediterannean during the dynastic rule for Egypt. This would be roughly from 5000 years ago as you know. Please provide something, a link, reliefs, anything. I’d love to know (not being sarcastic)
Hakat, there are other image of Puntish people in other tombs. They are depicted as very similar to Egytpians and Asitaics.
The debate over Punt is split. Some people took a look at the exotic animal gifts depicted and say Africa. Other people look at the texts and say ‘Asia’. And the texts do say Asia, repeatedly. As for the sailing upriver, it would depend on which part of Punt you’d want to reach, and where you were to start. If it extended from Jordan to the Yemen area, sometimes you’d go by different routes to get to different parts.
Reed huts on stilts were common in Asia AND Africa; Marsh Arabs lived in them right up until Saddam drained the marshes.
Your argument for inner African animals being native to the Lebanese coast was entertaining tho but, no…
They are not exclusive to Africa. Many of them are seen right across Asia.
The bible talks of giraffes in the Negev/Sinai area (Deuteronomy 14:5). They used to range into Iraq.
Rhinos ranged from Africa to east Asia, the one horned Asian rhino is thought have have reached into North Africa once. You also got hippos in Galillee and Syria.
Baboons in Arabia.
http://www.theanimalfiles.com/mammals/primates/baboon_hamadryas.html
There were ostriches in the NE until they got hunted to extinction in the 20th century. link
Cheetahs went from the near east to India Link.
There are still leopards in the Near East.
http://216.239.59.132/search?q=cache:W2zLMSwM_70J:www.geocities.com/jelbaum/mammals.html+bible+camel+leopard+negev&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=uk
And as I said, it wasn’t just the lebanese coast.
Also, it doesn’t state that these animals were native to Punt, in fact it says some weren’t: the southern panther and natives of that land weren’t Puntish, they were exotic gifts from the Puntish to Hatshepsut.
The excerpt you posted that states African incense as being “unfit for ritual purposes” is a joke
No, it’s accurate. You haven’t even seen it yet you automatically dismiss it.
It’s accompanied by a reference to a study where they analysed the incense and found it to be mostly Arabian in origin. Also something you’ve dismissed.
I notice you decided to not comment on the fact that the Egyptians describe Punt as being in Asia and use the name they called the Arabs for the Puntish.
Before I get started this time, I’d like to thank Astenb for his notable resilience and knowledge of genetics. Also (belive it or not) Mathilda, for keeping far-fetched ideas in the forefront of our minds regarding far away peoples and far away lands that the ancient Egyptians occasionally interacted with… (kidding)
First, Mathilda, you say that “the debate on Punt is split.” But, split where? in here? Hardly the case as would be proved by anyone’s online websearch on the topic “Punt.” In my quest for more information on Al Quesir, the Egyptian port of departure (on the Red Sea) for the Land of Punt, I noticed an interesting query result outlining “Empire of Thebes” – [Emmet John Sweeney] inspired by Velikovsky’s “Ages in Chaos” (see below). The work goes to great measures trying to discount theories (the majority of which) that relate Punt to its “rightful place” at the Horn of Africa (Somalia or Ethiopia). I thought of you instantly Mathilda, as this reading is right up your alley in terms of the whole “Punt was in Lebanon” myth… (interesting reading tho and one that I’m sure even the Aryan Nation would in no doubt praise) however, I will forewarn the educated readers among us… This author also believes that Hatshepsut met personally with the King of Israel (?) and cleverly articulates that 18th dynasty rulers such as Thutmose III Hatshepsut herself had direct diplomatic relations and trade with the established Kingdom of Israel in the fourteenth century bc…(WTF?) Well, so much for his credibility on the Puntites or his knowledge of Egyptian history for that matter. A true testament to the fact that there ARE some very well spoken and well read LOONS out there selling and spreading seemingly plausible historical information about Egypt and Africa in their publications):
http://books.google.com/books?id=9wfO73QN6VcC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=Punt+Quseir+.edu&source=web&ots=wWr85BSwPR&sig=fBfhoKTK3JFMl49pruZVYHTuSGg&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA54,M1
I gladly post this here (if it makes it on) knowing full well that what is read will be agreed upon by most of your supporters, Mathilda. That goes without saying. But, I also do this because I have no fear of such publications, nor am I concerned with classicists, racists of any ethnicity or background and authors or blog writers who dedicate either their life’s work or their hobbies “intelligently denying” Black Africans their rightful place among African culture and history. I have respect for you though, Mathilda… not so much because I disagree with you on many topics but, rather because I know you are so much better than what you have represented thus far for the broad scope of indeginous Africans in their own continent.
Mathilda, no offence dear but you really should stick to genetics and anthropology because geography is rather lacking.
“The ‘Red Sea’ route is equally valid for the Jordan to Yemen area. You can go quite a way into Jordan by sea.”
True, while you temporarily forgot about Byblos with regards to the Red Sea and switched the geography to Yemen… So, which is it? Lebanon or Yemen That’s quite a span of territory, Mathilda. And if the authors you support aren’t privy of it, at least you should be aware that the Red Sea could be traversed to what is now Jordan, back in ancient times but, NOT to the coast of Lebanon e.g. Byblos which WAS the main element of your argument (a few posts ago) and that of the mythical writers you quoted. Those huge Egyptian barges are shown and described as docking and loading on Punt’s shores, which would be impossible from the launch point of Quesir. Any query on Quesir will give you the history of the ancient port which will usually include Hatshepsut’s expedition to the Somali or Ethiopian coast (the most likely location for Punt).
Funny that you mention “Qesenet country” or the “Qesentyu” and Punt in the same sentence, since no other reference for those terms appear anywhere outside of the book: Mysterious Lands. There were (0) results for matches on all the major search engines for those names… (a mythological infusion, or an error deciphering the text perhaps, or both?) Who knows? It’s not beyond radical historians to do so (especially when it comes to interpreting Egyptian Hieroglyphic -which we still don’t completely know).
By the way, what you claimed I “dismissed” was not the inscription (if the was interpretation is correctly) that speaks of “Nubian” incense being “unfit” for Egyptian worship – I called it a joke by means of that inscription being an Egyptian reference to Punt’s incense as “unfit,” which is in stark contrast to Hatshepsut’s words regarding that land. Why would she go through all the trouble of importing myrrh and frankencense back to Egypt in the first place (by the boat load mind you) if it’s no good? What king (or queen) accepts such large quantities of desirable and aromatic substances as gifts to their court and their god(s), if those gifts were damnable in the first place?? But, you have to understand damnable contributions to historical literature in order to understand that. The likes of which you might be supporting. What else is new?
Also, what does Nubia have to do with this?? We’re not talking about Nubia, Mathilda. We’re talking about Punt which is quite a bit further south than Nubia as most archaeologists and “sane” egyptologist will attest.
About the animals being from “the southern land” (as you put it)… I guess you’ve ruled out Byblos then? It’s probably a wise thing at this point as you obviously can’t provide any ancient references to the contrary.
I will end on this point… “Ta Netjer” or “God’s Land” was a plural term as far as land descriptions go, and not limited to the land(s) of Punt. The Egyptians did refer to regions far South, East and Northeast of Egypt by this term. It seems that any place beyond Egypt’s borders that luxurious commodities and desirable good came from, were somehow lands that the omnipotent gods dwelt.
Still not happy with the Egyptians saying the Puntites were sand dwellers who lived directly East then.
The main support for the East Africa location was the ‘African animals’, which is now shown to be dud.
I said Punt was in Asia, didn’t say where exactly. It covers the territory of three tribes, it was hardly likely to be a small area. Byblos is in Asia.
Writers; non-mythical.
Stephen Quirke….. is Curator of the Petrie Museum of Egyptian Archaeology, UCL, and a Lecturer in Egyptology at its Institute of Archaeology.
David B O’connor is also a renowned Egyptologist who taught Zahi Hawass.
So not lunatic fringe writers, but very respected modern Egyptology doctorates.
I was quoting from text sources. You just don’t like what they said, so you’ve decided that ‘it was made up’. You made up your mind it was in East Africa ages ago, and essentially anything that says anything to the contrary, even outright descriptions of the Puntites as being directly to the East, in Asia, and as sand dwellers; is ‘non-fit’ information that has to be discarded somehow.
I made up my mind after wading through a few books by respected authors. I thought the animals were African too (at first). Once you eliminate the ‘African’ animals, the evidence for an African Punt is pretty thin. The texts (as I’ve posted ) repeatedly name Asia as the location for Punt.
Also, it said incense from Kush, not Nubia, was unfit. And the same Temple inscription says the Punt/Kush are different locations.
So what is your text evidence for East Africa?
You criticise the conclusions of some of the most respected Egyptologists around, but as yet your counterclaim has been pretty lightweight, essentially clinging to Punt as African purely from the belief the animals depicted were only found in Africa.
Please put together a coherent counter argument. I’ll use it in my ‘In search of Punt’ entry I’m composing and give you an author credit if it’s any good. Bear in mind I am an ‘analytical broad’ and like logical arguments.
Mathilda! I think we’re both are right on Punt to a certain extent! I’m pretty excited about what I’ve found so far. So, with all due respect, I relinquish my stance for a sole location of Punt being in East Africa. There’s too much evidence showing more than one location. After viewing enough published works, translated inscriptions and using a little common sense, the only REAL logical conclusion (imo) for Punt is to acknowledge all the valid evidence that points to BOTH regions, South of Egypt along East Africa’s Red Sea coast (Horn of Africa), and Northeast of Egypt (Eastern Mediterranean/ Byblos/Lebanon) This would be in no particular order, as the inscriptions show equal reference to Northeast and South regions from as far as the 4th dynasty. The ‘little bit of info’ I’ve gathered below should clear things up quite well for anyone with an open mind. Plus, we can all do our own research to see for ourselves. Please take to time to do just that…
Description of Punt: http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/history3-11.htm
5th Dynasty (reference to Punt)
Sahure (2487-2475 BCE) established the Egyptian navy and sent a fleet to Punt and traded with Canaan [the Biblical “Land of God” which includes the Lebanon coast]. His pyramid has colonnaded courts and reliefs of his naval fleet, but his military career consisted mostly of campaigns against the Libyans in the western desert.
6th Dynasty (reference to Punt)
Pepi I (2289-2255 B.C.) had to enlist the support of noblemen from Upper Egypt in order to defeat a usurper and Upper Egyptians came to play an important part in his administration: He married two of his vizier’s sisters, and Weni, a close advisor, led Nubian troops against the Bedouins in Sinai and southern Canaan.
Pepi campaigned in Nubia and established garrisons and trading posts. Trade relations with Byblos [“Ta Netjer/Land of God,” i.e. “Punt” of the Northeast] were flourishing and Punt in the Horn of Africa [“Ta Netjer/Land of God,” i.e. “Punt” of the South] was frequently reached. His pyramid was so impressive that its name, Mennefermare, was given to the area. The capital, originally named Hiku-Ptah, was renamed Mennefer, then Menfi. The Greeks later transliterated it as Memphis. Pepi built temples at Tanis, Bubastis, Abydos, Dendera and Coptos.
Pepi’s Campaigns in Canaan
Merenre followed Pepi I, but died at a young age. He was succeeded by Pepi II, his half brother, who was still underage. His mother, Queen Ankhesenpepi II, widow of Pepi I, became regent. She was buried in her own pyramid in the mortuary compound of her husband.
According to the kings list Pepi II reigned for 94 years, during which time the power of the pharaoh decayed, as too much wealth was expended on burials and the more talented and vigourous officials left Memphis for the regional capitals. Foreign campaigns into Nubia under Harkhuf and trade expeditions to Punt met with little success.
Some scholarly work published on the Punt (in East Africa):
“In the past there has been some debate about the origin and location of the land of Punt. Most theories that locate Punt in Jordan, Sinai, Lebanon, of Southern Arabia have been discarded. The most likely place according to Kenneth Kitchen is northern Eritrea/Ethiopia and east-north-east Sudan. One vital evidence that locates Punt within this vicinity is teff being found in 5th dyansty pyramid bricks. Teff only grows within Ethiopia/Eritrea and not within Southern Arabia,Lebanon,or Jordan.” (Papers in African Prehistory ed. J. D. Fage and R. A. Oliver. Cambridge, 1970.)
Folks, here is a very detailed description showing the great land effort through the desert to reach the Red Sea coast from Koptos, in preparation to sail to “God’s Land,” the Punt of the South…
http://www.bookrags.com/history/ancient-egypt-transportation-exploration/sub25.html
Henenu, the chief steward of the Eleventh-Dynasty pharaoh Mentuhotep III (c. 2014-2001 B.C.), led an expedition of 3,000 men to Punt in order to renew trade. Henenu’s autobiography gives a detailed account of the trip, including information about planning and organization. Thus we know that Henenu and his men took a new route, leaving Koptos in Egypt and traveling overland through the Wadi Hammamat to a port on the Red Sea. According to Henenu, he sent a team ahead of the expedition to dig wells at intervals through the 90 miles (145 km) of desert between Koptos and the Red Sea. Each expedition member was issued a staff and a leather canteen, and received a food ration of 2 jars of water and 20 biscuits a day. The baggage train even carried extra sandals in case anyone’s wore out on the arduous journey. Once at the Red Sea port, the expedition built “Byblos ships,” special, large, seagoing vessels used for the Byblos-Punt voyages. Recent archaeological excavation at Mersa Gawasis has evidently uncovered the remains of the Red Sea port used by the Middle-Kingdom traders.
From this port, Henenu and his men sailed down the coast, landed, and apparently marched inland some distance before meeting the Puntites.
They stayed in Punt for two to three months and then returned up the coast. Once they had landed at the Egyptian port, they had to pack all the trade goods onto donkeys and trek across the desert back to Koptos. Trade goods included myrrh, animal skins (leopard and cheetah), ivory, ebony, gold, and other luxury items. The Punt trade involved a major investment of time and resources on the part of the Egyptians, but they made huge profits from it.
(Please note: Both Ramses II and Ramses III have reported boasting of having made voyages to Punt by way of Wadi Hammamat and Koptos. With Koptos/Coptos being the shortest route from the Nile to the Red Sea coastline).
Another excellent read on Byblos (Eastern Med.) and the Horn of Africa:
http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html
…and although not directly mentioning Punt, a page that’s specific to the Egyptians’ need for importing fine woods like Cedar and Pine (Lebanon), and Ebony (East Africa) pretty much says all…
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/timelines/topics/wood.htm
The Book of the Dead: (eastern lands!)
The lands of the gods, and the eastern lands of Punt must be seen before they can be described and before that which is hidden (in thee) may be measured.”
Vol. 1. Hymn to Ra From the papyrus of Ani. P.74. EWB
Also…
Inscriptions from the Palermo Stone (Snefru – first pharaoh of the 4th Dynasty):
The oldest surviving written evidence for an international timber trade is the Palermo stone, in which Snefru, the first pharaoh of the fourth dynasty, tells of importing cedar from Lebanon: “Bringing forty ships filled [with] cedar logs. Shipbuilding [of] cedar wood, one…ship, 100 cubits [long] [=45.73 m], and of meru wood, two ships, 100 cubits [long]. Making the doors of the royal palace [of] cedarwood.” The text does not specify a place of origin, but Byblos is likely.
Mathilda, this undoubtedly points to a ‘Punt to the Northeast, i.e. Bylos along the Eastern Med. “Breasted’s and Kithchen’s analysis only reinforces what the evidence shows as a ‘Punt in the South” that is South of Nubia (south of modern-day Sudan). As the term Punt (Pwn.t) and Ta Netjer are used interchangeably as meaning “Land of God,” we see that Punt was TWO completely seperate regions and NOT ONE SPECIFIC PLACE at all. It is both the land of exotic gifts proven from the myrrh, frankncense and magnificent CEDAR wood of Lebanon, as well as the gold, ivory, EBONY wood, exotic animals/skins and myrrh/frankincense from the Horn of Africa! So, as indicated from the desirable treasures of both locations, “God’s Land(s)” were duly acknowledged by the ancient Egyptians!
Thank you for the effort Hakat.
I’m only blogging lightly at the moment due to christmas and kids/me being sick; so it might be a while until I wrap this all up into an entry/digest the info.
SO it might take a few days for comments to be posted/answered.
I wish I had the knowledge of genetics that both of you have (Mathilda and astenb) so that I could first picture the various people-groups you’re referencing and then contribute to that part of the discussion.
As far as Punt, it’s pretty clear to me that this was a very “plural” word that meant “Land of God” to the Egyptians (Norteast and South of Egypt). More and more references are seen as I search that show the lower Red Sea on Africa (and also the Eastern Med) coasts as reference points based on the flora and fauna extracted and various gifts brought back to Egypt from these lands. Interestingly enough, the Egyptians termed the ships they used on the Red Sea journey to ‘the Southern Punt’ “Byblos ships,” because of the size and type of ships used were the same used to go on trade missions to Byblos for cedar wood.
Mathilda, since you’ve mentioned it, I’ve been searching for “Asiatic looking” Puntite images also, with not much luck. I’ve been searching hard and can’t find any from Rekmire, Sahure, Thutmosis III, Amenhetep III or any from the Rameside kings. That would help alot. One could say that the bearded men in some of Hatshepsut’s temple reliefs for Punt suggest West Asians but, the examples that still show color are just too dark brown for me to make that connection. The Queen (of ‘the Southern Punt’) was painted very dark brown and close to black-skinned in the reliefs (just google image-search her and you’ll see). I’d imagine that the Levantine Puntites should be depicted lighter like the traditional Egyptian depictions of people from that area. Also, East Africans were ocasionally shown wearing beards in that close, tapered style. Heck, pre and early dynastic Egyptians wore the same style as well (see Narmer Palette)!
Personally, I’d like some closure on this topic (and it’d be nice if I could find some scholarly documentation backing my belief in Punt being more than one region). I can’t be the only one looking at it from that angle.
Hey Hakat, I recently watched a very interesting documentary on Punt, being in Eastern Africa on the German National Television (ZDF), . They will re-run it starting next week. Please check the following links:
http://www.tamaraspitzing.de/sp_htm/english/01_news/index.html
The Video (in German)
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/content/384280?inPopup=true
Thank you Tom. Very nice page and the documentary looks like one that’s worth watching. Photos were well done also.
Nice post. There is so much things to read on this page, so I only skimmed it. Anyways, I wanted to speak on the land of punt. The land of punt is said to be located Somalia. Not Lebanon nor Ethiopia. Particularly in the Sanaag/Sool area I believe. I have one question for Matilda: how could the Puntites be Lebanese if they were depicted as Africans with brown skin. In fact they looked very similar to Egyptians themselves. I am East African particularly Somali and I am very interested in this topic myself. If you have any other info you would like share with the world, please do. Thanks.
how could the Puntites be Lebanese if they were depicted as Africans with brown skin
There’s a few depictions and descripitons of Puntites. Some have brown skin, but some don’t, they are depictd quite similarly to Egyptians with pointed beards in some, and some have light skin, one even has fair hair. Puntites are also called Asiatics and described as living directly to the East of Egypt, so A Saudi/yemen location is probably more likely. There’s a big long argument above in the comments with Hakat that covers most of it, where I use a couple of leading Egyptologists arguments who favour Saudi/Yemen. There depictions of them bringing tribute to Egypt on small goatskin/wood rafts, so it couldn’t have been very far away.
I’m not getting into this one again. See comments above /\ /\ /\ for full list of descriptions of Punt, Puntites etc.. You want 44 onwards.
The Land of Punt is in Lebanon, Almost everything that was gathered came from Lebanon, Cedar wood comes from Lebanon, And NOT the south of the Sub_Sahara.
Hi Pharaon.
I think it might be more realistic to assume Punt was somewhere from the Jordan area down as far as Yemen. Until there’s a direct refernce into a text the exact location (It may have been a big territory) won’t be known.
Censorship – I see a lot of post were removed.
Why let people leave responses if you are going to remove them?
The comment poster pissed me off, quite simply.
He spent a lot of time insisting all M1 in the near East was African in origin (it isn’t) and Punt was proved to be in Somalia (it isn’t) then went around claiming on ES he’d kicked my ass when all he’d done was not quite understand the GOT Ethiopian Mt DNA study and a couple of others and, repeat himself and refuse to provide sources fro his info when asked. I’ve since been shown to be correct on my stance On M1 when I got hold of the distribution maps for M1 and M1a, but you don’t see me naming and shaming him, I’m a grown up who respects other people (I don’t name names).
Before he got childish I left it up, but after that I deleted all his comments. He was making out he was 100% correct when he’d made a couple of blinding mistakes that matched my own (unlike him I don’t pretend to be perfect, I even thanked him when he corrected a mistake I’d made due to confusion of the HG’s in a paper, although it effectively had no effect on the gist of the post) I was perfectly content to leave these up as educational on my part until he started behaving like a wanker. I also allowed another ES member to whine on for a dozen comments on another post, until he started to becoming insulting when he couldn’t answer why it’s okay to notice near Eastern ancestry in Europeans but not Africans. Honestly ypu’d think they at least try aliases. I let them post until they become insulting, and they always do, then I go back and delete all their comments.
Not censorship. Irritation.
Mathilda, there probably will never be text found for a direct location for Punt but, the majority of scholarly reference based on artistic and literary eveidence suggests the Horn of Africa. But, unless you’ve ignored it, I’ve shown support for your take on a West Asian location for Punt as well. Unlike you, I have a very open and tolerant mind when it comes to races and ethnicities, which is why I would never DENY the obvious when artistic depictions fall in line with the MAJORITY of textual reference and scholarly opinion. So, the question is, WHY DO YOU (CONSISTENTLY) DENY THE OBVIOUS WHEN ARTISTIC DEPICTIONS FALL IN LINE WITH THE MAJORITY OF TEXTUAL REFERENCE AND SCHOLARLY OPINION (especially when it comes to Black, Sub-Suharan Africa)?? What on earth do you have against these peoples?
We’ve seen your denial of an 18th dynasty Queen (Tiye) and her racial background based on her appearance from Egypatian works of art, and you’ve called them “inaccurate” due to the depictions being obviously of a Black African mix – and proudly use an (unsubstantiated) mummy to refute the Egyptians’ own artwork of her. How rude… We’ve seen how you stand steadfast against making ANY comment in reference to the Queen of Punt (as shown repeatedly in the Temple of Hatshepsut) for the same reasons of ethnic denial (I know… the artwork’s not in favor of your theories of Caucasoid/Eurasian Near East/North African exclusivity).
But, even after never seeing any photos or links from you to date of any artwork showing Puntines as light skinned people, I have NOT DENIED what I did see as strong evidence for Punt being a plural term and meaning ancient references to the Eastern Med (Byblos), as well as the Horn of Africa. I gave reasons as to why the book you referenced was laughable.
…And all you have to say after all the information and links I provided which caused me to change my own opinion to favor both our stances (to a degree) is “I’m not getting into this one again.” Why not? Why bail out of the discussion now, Mathilda? Would it be because evidence shows Punt to be a plural term for “God’s Land?” Or is it just too painful for you to modify your stance or admit something when it involves Sub-Saharan African (Negroid) types who have shown “favourable” mention in hitorical texts and had good trade relations with Egypt, from the Old Kingdom through her Golden Age?
WHY DO YOU (CONSISTENTLY) DENY THE OBVIOUS WHEN ARTISTIC DEPICTIONS FALL IN LINE WITH THE MAJORITY OF TEXTUAL REFERENCE AND SCHOLARLY OPINION
Which is that Egyptians are the same today as they were then. I never say anything otherwise. There is no agreement on the location of Punt at all.
The mummy of queen Tiye is a much more reliable guide than an artists impression. Either that mummy isn’t Tiye, as no way is it black, or the artists were not doing an exact representation. As I’ve said, her father wasn’t even thought to be an Egyptian, so an all black African Tiye seems unlikely. We have the parents mummies hakat, neither look particularly black. She’s identified by the hair in Tut’s hand. My point was the mummy doesn’t look black at all, but it does look like Tiyes parents.
FYI, please check out the pages on mummy reconstructions. I don’t ever deny a mummy is black or negroid when it is, or when the reconstructions look like black Africans. It’s just that the majority don’t come into the category, and that mummy of ‘Tiye’ certainly doesn’t. I NEVER go by the tomb paintings, as they are very stylised.
As for Punt, yes, some translations do seem to suggest the Horn of Africa, but my sources for Asia came from a book written by two of the worlds leading Egyptologists and they don’t buy an African location, and neither do quite a few others, so the field is hardly unified on Somalia. I can’t access the Puntite images, they were described in a book (same one as before) and I can’t get a hold of the images on line. And no, actually you didn’t give any reason why any of the books (plural) I used as references were laughable.
Not getting into it again..as the entire for and against by us both is in the comments section already, and those things took an hour to type each and responding to comments takes me at least an hour a day all ready; I’d rather be spending time researching than going over ground I’ve already covered.
“There is no agreement on the location of Punt at all.”
(1) That would be according to you… (and perhaps a few negro-phobic scholars). But, certainly not of the overwhelming sclolastic and scientific majority, of whom place Punt at or close to the Horn of East Africa. Nonetheless, with all due repsect, albeit lending to your Eurasian fervor, I have shown my excitement in a previous post above, sharing evidence I’ve found that supports the Lebanese coast as (another possible location) which the Egyptians described as “God’s Land,” i.e. Punt. I must say though, a ‘dual location’ approach is something I feel you are incapable of exploring Mathilda, let alone admitting – even if you discovered enough “texts” to support it – and going in that direction is probably another reason why you wish to avoid the subject altogether. Hmm… You’ve claimed that you often spend an hour on replies… Imagine if you dared to do the same regarding location references to Punt? Or maybe you have (we’ll never know what you found, or ignored) in your queries but, it doesn’t take much research to see what most experts think on the matter. Sincere thanks though (really), for your textual reference to the “Punt at Byblos.” I don’t agree with the author’s approach (extremely biased) but, it helped me find some more references to Lebanon, which I would never be ashamed to admit.
“There is no agreement on the location of Punt at all.”
(2) For that matter, there is no agreement on the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians… Surely blogs all over the internet aren’t (never will) and certainly not the scientific community – the only consensus is within those damnable groups who filter their research and references with a very fine and biased strainer i.e. Eurocentrists and Afrocentrists… who suck. Heck, we can’t even agree on who or what is “definitively Black” or “Negroid” and who isn’t thanks to this F’ed up concept of race you so passionately defend. I’m sure that according to you and the plethora of genetic talk crammed into this site, the 44th president of the United States of America would NOT be considered “Black” at all because of his 50% European “White” ancestry (more than enough to make him “Caucasoid” based on ALL I’VE READ thus far in here). And we see that exact same nearly religious fervor when it comes to Egyptian artwork and mummified remains. I wonder what might result from a “cranial analysis” of Obama’s skull?? Hey! 50%! The bottom line here is when it comes to MODERN BLACKS (or those who can actually speak for themselves against racial profiling), Caucasoid “percentages” don’t count… if ya look at all Black, guess what? Your Black! But, make reference to the GLORIES OF THE ANCIENT PAST? EGYPT? INFLUENCE UPON WORLD HISTORY?? Oh, no! Let’s look at the DNA charts, shall we? Let’s see… the percentages suddenly rule in favor of Europe, Eurasia, and the Turkish Ottomans. Very little if ANY Sub-Saharan traces have been found in Egyptian samples. In other words, the “Obamas” or “mixed” Blacks of Northeast African ancestry take on an entirely different definition. Don’t they, Mathilda?? ^_^
Hakat, you’ll find virtually nil disagreement as to the race of the Egyptians among the scientists who do the reasearch and reputable scholars; even the much quoted and very black Afrocentrists favourite Dr Keita has said that modern Egytpians are mainly descended from the Pleistocene Egyptians.
The location of Punt is very much under debate, and the reason I favour somewhere East is that I know there was some population movement from the Sinia area into upper Egypt in the neolithic.
Weird rant at the end Hakat. Sub Saharan mt DNA has been found in the mummies BTW, as well as other lines. If you want to see obsessive over the amount of ‘percentage ‘ in East Africans go look at Egyptsearch and the lengths they go to to insist Ethiopians are ‘pure’ Africans. If you want to see racism in action suggest that any Eurasian population made any kind of movement into East Africa-just stand well back if you do it.
Do you only look at the Egyptians portion of the blog? I need to keep tabs on the percentages to figure out the amount of population flow, a large part of what I’m interested in is the overall peopling scenario for North Africa. You’ll find it’s also so standard in the DNA studies of the Near East and NA that I collect here that I just never give it much thought when I use it.
No-one ever questions when I say ‘Europeans are 20% turkish farmer’, or If I say ‘white Americans are 4% Native American’. It just measures population mixing Hakat.
Thanks. I guess I just get alittle huffy when I see distinctly different approaches to what is considered “Black” NOW vs. that of the ancient past… especially when it comes to such an important civilization as ancient Egypt. We all become so possessive and selfish because we all see a part of ourselves in the genetic data and in the art, to the point that we exclude certain groups in our ignorance… If only we could admit simply that they were a pretty mixed bunch of all the races neighboring Egypt (East, West and South) and respect their past racial diversity, half of these bloody sites wouldn’t be here contaminating the internet (obviously I’m not speaking of yours – I do post here regularly and can tolerate much of what you say – winks). 🙂
I’m not familiar with egyptsearch, perhaps I should take a look. I’m not sure if it’s the majority there but, one thing I don’t make a habit of is hanging out with Afrocentrics, as most (imo) are not educated enough, respectful enough in dialog, or interested enough in hard data OR the diversity of AE for me to invest my time. In fact, they tend to be very selfish concerning AE and the vast majority just seem to mirror the over-self-glorified ideologies of White supremists, just curiously enough, from a Black historical perspective.
Well, the “rant” you spoke of was because of how the terms sub-Saharan and Negroid are thrown around (here and everywhere) like it’s something “definite” and how confused you and even “experts” seem to be when attempting to define the “undefinable,” i.e. who would be considered Black and who wouldn’t in ancient times. As far as Keita… he is highly respected by me because he has the balls to admit that the people of Northeast African (e.g. Egypt) as a whole, share many different phenotypical variations yet, as I do, hates the concept of “race” and understands that there is NOTHING definitive about the term. You mention Dr. Keita as an Afrocentrist’s favourite however, I’d bet that most of them have a problem with his hatred of “race” as a concept, and only cling to his fight for including so-called “sub-Saharan” people in a place where they’ve always been… As I said earlier, “race” only matters when you have something to prove.
By the way, I don’t have a problem with significant Eurasian content being amongst the peoples of East Africa or Egypt (past or present), it’s just a fact. However, I do have a problem with notions that “Black” Africans can only fit into a category indicative of stereotypical inner African Black types (i.e those Blacks shown of lower rank and insignificance) when it comes to delineating the “notable contributors” to ancient Egyptian culture and the nation’s current population (from Upper to Lower). We all know the negative stereotype well, and it directly involves any mention of “Nubians” in ancient Egypt – the captives, the slaves, those bearing gifts – and those mysteriously “limited” to only the southernmost parts of the country (past and present). There seems to be no tolerance for any variation of admixure (with Blacks) when speaking of Northeast Africa at all, even when the data screams of such variation, and regardless of how heavy or light the percentages. So, as a man who is Black, who obviously has a significant amount of White European ancestry himself (who must check “Black” on any resume), this type of denial and exclusionary “science” pisses me off, and justifyingly so. It’s one more reason why I am paying more attention to Keita’s works as of late, because he has for decades, combatted this type of ignorance within the varied disciplines responsible for our knowledge.
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idiotic ethnic nationalists around
yep
I agree…