Unfortunately this DNA study doesn’t discriminate between L3 and later non African mutations. However, since M1, U, pre HV and a whole slew of other Eurasian DNA hg’s date to about 35k, then later to 12k in North Africa, this study probably isn’t massively far off the mark for lower Nubia .
mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley
C. Fox, 1997:
Abstract:
The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26·7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa I (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68·7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.
Krings et al study, 1999:
A study which included the modern population of both lower and upper Nubia show them to be about 45% maternally Eurasian, and there’s been virtually no immigration into the lower Nubia area from Asia according to the Y chromosome study of the area by Lucotte; which suggests this 60% Eurasian figure in the mummies is probably very roughly correct; (unless you believe there were invading armies of Arab women) particularly since the Dakhleh Oasis ancient and modern mt DNA analysis shows more Sub Saharan mt DNA than the ancient Egyptian samples, which is possibly attributable to the Arab slave trade. The Y chromsome study of lower Nubia here suggests historic male input from non Africans into the area is less than 5%, so it’s hard to argue for the ancient samples being massively different based on the modern DNA of the area.
Mathilda's Anthropology Blog. 
This article is actually a welcome breath of common sence to this rather bizzare debate. Sadly it takes this much work to proove what everyone already knew. That in a region on the borders of Africa and Asia the people there were and are a mix of African an Asiatic peoples.
What I do fail to see is exactly why this classifies this work as “eurocentric” or “supremacist” since population movements from Europe don’t feature. It is hardly as if Europeans are trying to somehow claim credit for Pharaonic culture.
As I say, a rare oasis of common sence in this debate.
You wouldn’t believe the hate mail I delete for daring to post something that observes Nubians seem to be similar to Ethiopians, not West Africans.
Honestly, I didn’t start anthropolgy as an Afrocentrist hater. It’s the abuse I’ve got for posting known facts about human remains, artifacts and DNA studies in North and East Africa that’s done it.
The ancient Egyptian and modern Egyptian populations both show a mix of Negroid and Caucasoid features, to about the same degree. They don’t show a relationship to the Niger-Congo Africans on the West coast any more than they do the Nordics. They are similar to Ethiopians and modern North Africans though, who are all mixed.
Why observing that an ancient population is about the same as the modern one in the same location makes me racist and white supremacist, I’m not sure
It is one of the mysteries of the modern world, though I personally am of the view that the whole afrocentric argument has rather a lot more to do with modern North America than it does with pre-historic Africa.
What makes me angry is that this whole farce turns valid academic research and understanding and degrades it to the point of being useless for a political end. It’s the same as the religious literalists who wish to use archaeology to try and prove the literal truth of the exodus, and twist the chrnology to do it.
Whilst many of us would like to have our own beliefs proven, or our “side” vindicated by evidence out of the ground, we cannot let that wish distort the reality of the evidence in front of us when it goes against them.
“the whole afrocentric argument has rather a lot more to do with modern North America than it does with pre-historic Africa”
It so does.
Good Job.
What Pisses me off is..How the Afrocentric have always been trying to steal my Ancestors Accomplishments.
The Afrocentric think their better than everyone else. As soon as i try to correct them About Ancient Egypt they start to call me an Invader,an Arab, or Greek just because I don’t Agree with Them.
I am An Egyptian who come From Luxor, And All the temples that I have seen with my Eyes..Not once did they ever show anything of a Nigro Race that was in any kind of power, Except the Illegitimate 25’th Dynasty that should be changed because of the Invasion.
Fact there’s plenty of Art depicting Nigros as Slaves all over our temple walls, Yet, The Afrocentric seem to ignore all these findings and somehow try to convince others that isn’t so Even as the Painting still stand today.
Much of the nubians have invaded our southern borders from Aswan to Luxor , People that Vist these places think this is the Egyptians, Not true at all.
Per Pharaon:
“Afrocentric have always been trying to steal my Ancestors Accomplishments..”
One wonders exactly how ‘ancestors’ is defined. The indipsutable facts re the ancients are “that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.” (Lovell 1999. See also Keita 1997, 2005, and Yurco 1989, et. al). Part of the alleged “ancestry” thus includes those “nigro” peoples, lol, unpalatable as it may seem. Even Matilda allocates them a percentage.. 🙂
As for the “illegitimate 25th Dynasty” presumably Pharon embraces the foreign Hyskos, Romans, Greeks, Arabs etc because they were not “nigro”. 🙂 Curiously, the 25th Dynasty was known for its RESTORATIONIST sympathies with classic Egyptian civilization.
As for “nigros” as slaves on “our” temple walls.. lol.. Pharaon conveniently fails to note that “white” Levantines and Mesopotamians are depicted in the same way as well, as are “his” people under “nigro” rule. As regards Nubians, Frank Yurco 1989, notes that among all peoples they were the closest ethnically to the Egyptians, and that conflict between them was politically not racial. But I suppose such scholarship doesn’t count when it comes to “nigros”.. lol
The quality of Pharaon’s post speaks for itself.
Yes, but they display features well within the range of current Egyptians too. And thier hair, teeth and skulls constantly group closest to current North Africans.
Go easy on Pharaon, I don’t think English is his first language.
mathilda37
Yes, Your right, “English” Is NOT my First language.
People often think we ONLY speak the Arabic Language, BUT what they fail to see till this day is that We still speak the Pharaonic language. We Only speak 30 percent Arabic.
Gnarlesbarklay
Thats funny, You say that people of the south have a Tropical body? Although “Egypt” is NOT a Tropical Nation.
And All these people you seem to bring up into the picture are NOT Scientists, IMMUNOLOGIST or Anthropologists. You know till you can find a Black mummy, Than at least I’d say you have a discussion but there isn’t.
Using your Afrocentric sites is NOT very Credible at All.
About the painting outside of our temples was the best way for my Ancestors to define the Nigro race.
If your going to make fun of my Language, Well than maybe I will speak to you in my Language and see IF you can understand.
Law zingy kawel wa nask wakaseen aneek ahlk
Gnarles, the Upper Egyptians were closely related to the Nubians, but the lower Egytians weren’t. Go to Egypt today and you’ll see a smooth change in the people as you go South from the delta. Modern Southern Egyptians are about 40% Sub Saharan in ancestry, so ‘all black looking’ is well within the normal range there. The vast majority at the delta end are Caucasian (Keita). There have been Cuacasians at the North end since the Berbers arrived in the Mahgreb about 20,000 years ago.
Remember, Egypt was two kingdoms to start with. Menes united them.
The dental and hair studies as well as this DNA one point to the Nubians as having a good amount of non African ancestry. It’s probably from the Neolithic farming expansion, the population changed a lot at the end of the Neolithic in Nubia, Caucasian traits start showing up in the teeth (JD Irish).
mathilda37
I’m from Na_Ada or Naquada, I’d prefer to call it Na_Ada because that is the actual name. We’re coptics and we still have NOT mixed with anyone or any Nubians, We have old traditions which we still fallow till this day. By the way, Coptics are white/olive Complexion, In my Family we are mostly whites black hair and red hair and blue eyes, Nothing Nubian on our side.
Now, People see Nubians in the south because our prez Naser who made the Aswan Dam, Flooded the area and the Nubians had no where to go but into Aswan and travel north into other cities, Please they are NOT big part of our population. 100 years ago, they were NOT around.
My Father who’s 85 years old has a better Knowledge about it (And who’s a Doctor) have stated many times that Coptics Stayed together because of our Blood lines and to try to keep our wealth with in our own.
Please remember that information presented on this genetic study was interpreted to prove a thesis which has been developed long before the research was undertaken. Therefore, the content of this research paper should not be treated as concrete evidence.
However, as a Nubian myself from Sudan, I would agree with those who argue for a reduced sub-Saharan presence along the Nile population through history. As evident on the facial features of the Nubians today and as observed on the statues and paintings from ancient Nubia, it is legitimate to argue that the Nubians are markedly different from Africa’s sub-Saharan populations.
It was just a study that tallies with the hair from the tombs in Kerma (somewhere on this blog). A bit less than half of the hair is European, and one of the teeth studies concludes a large Caucasiod population influx in pre dynastic times into Nubia.
I’ve also read other DNA/cranio facial studies that group Nubians, Ethiopians and Eritreans as closer to Mediteranneans than other Africans.
Jari-Ankhamun, I don’t often mention this, but I have very good access via staff to several of the artifacts and mummies I mention here.
I can tell you, the picture I have of those Egyptian soldiers is a good match for the real thing, unlike you I’ve seen the two compared in the same light, and theres’ a big colour contrast between the Nubians and Egyptians.
The black Royal Solders of death are black because they come from the book of the dead, Black was considered a bad color. The 2 royal death solders were there to protect the tomb.
This is why when you go to a Funeral you’ll see Everyone wearing black, Well that come from the Ancient times. And death was considered Black..
Dear mathilda37 you and pharon make ood poin since the immagrant population of copts in orland wer lighter skined than most arabic neighbors. People of Syrian and Jordian ancestry in orlando were darker than copts.
The ethiopan orthodox that I met (the two churches are close in relation) had straight hair and different facial feathures than even some african, so you may be on to something. In the coptic peoples commenly had hazel and even green eyes (no blue so far). I am a german ,scot, native american mix and the coptic youth I met were lighter of skin than my self.
please no accusations of afrocentric,etc,etc ,just deconstruct these peer reviewed sources.
http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita.html
That’s how many weeks of work?
Funny you should post that link, I’ve got it on my blog somewhere. I’ve made a start in on several of those papers, the entries are around somewhere. I read most of them a while back, and any DNA studies releveant to N Africa you’ll find here too.
Sme things you should remember reading that page..
Predynastic Badarians are NOT representative of Northern Egyptians of the same era (Keita)and are of a different ‘type’, and the studies often conclude a population influx early in the dynastic era from Northern (lower) Egypt.
Indigenous is a very hazy term to Keita, he calls Ethiopians and Western Sahara people indigenous, but they contain a LOT of Eurasian ancestry, 40% in Ethiopia, Across the Sahara it’s a cline, hitting 50% about the area of Nubia/Mauritania.
And just to point out, at the Brace study on that page found NO affinity at all to sub saharan africans in ancient Egyptians, but plenty to other med populations.
I wish Afrocentrists would bother to read Keitas stuff properly. He points out in one of those papers that Caucasians have been all over N Africa for about 20,000 and more years, since the IM culture at least, which is backed up by the DNA studies on Caucasian North Africans.
thought i said no accusations of name calling afrocentrics.
you havent given me any peer reviewed sources of what these lower egyptians are,
PNAS August 5, 2008 vol. 105 no. 31 10693–10698
Y-chromosomal evidence of a pastoralist migration
through Tanzania to southern Africa
Brenna M. Henn et al.
Abstract
Although geneticists have extensively debated the mode by which agriculture diffused from the Near East to Europe, they have not directly examined similar agropastoral diffusions in Africa. It is unclear, for example, whether early instances of sheep, cows, pottery, and other traits of the pastoralist package were transmitted to southern Africa by demic or cultural diffusion. Here, we report a newly discovered Y-chromosome-specific polymorphism that defines haplogroup E3b1f-M293. This polymorphism reveals the monophyletic relationship of the majority of haplotypes of a previously paraphyletic clade, E3b1-M35*, that is widespread in Africa and southern Europe. To elucidate the history of the E3b1f haplogroup, we analyzed this haplogroup in 13 populations from southern and eastern Africa. The geographic distribution of the E3b1f haplogroup, in association with the microsatellite diversity estimates for populations, is consistent with an expansion through Tanzania to southern-central Africa. The data suggest this dispersal was independent of the migration of Bantu-speaking peoples along a similar route. Instead, the phylogeography and microsatellite diversity of the E3b1f lineage correlate with the arrival of the pastoralist economy in southern Africa. Our Y-chromosomal evidence supports a demic diffusion model of pastoralism from eastern to southern Africa ≈2,000 years ago.
From the fulltext:
“A
second model is based primarily on linguistic evidence, with
some archaeological correlates. Ehret (33) proposed that elements
of the Khwe language, specifically words associated with
pastoralism, had been borrowed from an East Sahelian language.
Intriguingly, the Bambata-ware pottery found at early pastoralist
sites in northern Namibia, northern Botswana and Zambia has
stylistic similarities to spouted pottery found at Ngamuriak on the border of Kenya/Tanzania (29, 34). Ngamuriak is a pastoralist
site considered part of the Elmenteitan culture. Southern
Nilotic languages (a subset of East Sahelian) correlate with the
Elmenteitan archaeological culture from 2,500 ya (33, 35
sorry wrong study. meant these.
The Diversity of Indigenous Africans,
The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians,
i need peer reviwed sources as proof that the first ethiopians and western saharans had the percentage of eurasian ancestry.
are you sure your using the up to date study with brace.and not the old one.
The Questionable Contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European
Okay, you need to be a little more specific about what you actually want.
Mostly I’m working from a dozen or more DNA studies that date Eurasian poulation movements into North/East Africa from SE Europe and West asia circa 30k ago. You need to look up the study of mtdna type U and the origin of mtdna type M, which are on here somewhere. Also the Y chromosome studies of N and W Africa that note Eurasian R1b having moved South in the stone age.
You’ll have to dig through the blog for them.
One of those Keita papers (can’t remember which offhand) concludes there’s a mix of races right across North Africa in the neolithic; and that Brace paper (questionable contribution) concluded there was no trace of sub saharan ancestry outside of SS Africa in any population, except the Natufians, along the S med coast. Although.. he was not very clear about some of the work, and contradicts his own prior statements in places.
These all place Caucasioid Berber ancestors along the Mahgreb from the paleolithic, and there seems to have been another population expansion from West Asia across North Africa in the Neolithic (Brace also) with the discovery of farming.
Really, you’ll just have to wade through about twenty or so DNA studies and Brace/Keita papers to get what you want. You won’t find it neatly sourced in one place. Quite a lot of the DNA studies involving N Afica I have on this blog though.
Hi Mathilda,
I am an “Black” American female. Just wanted to add a little insight as to why black people think of Egyptians, Ethiopians, etc.. as black. First a question that has always bothered me is why are blacks called black? Certainly the vast majority of our skin colors is not black, but shades of brown and for quite a few even ivory. As I have gotten older I realized that black is a political construct and not a scientific term. I believe this creates a lot of problems. For one thing I have long black hair that is soft in texture. My skin is brown like cinnamon and neither I nor any of my “black” friends exhibit Prognathism. My point is that when I look in the mirror I see someone who by far resembles those in the horn of Africa and not west Africa. We American “blacks” are a mixed race of people with no identity. We are not deep black like the Congoid race. Facially many of us resemble our probable Caucasian/Asian ancestors. My skin is the color of the skin of the Egyptians on the hieroglyphs! You see, Egypt is in Africa, Ethiopia is in Africa, Morocco is in African. So the inhabitants of those country are all African. Black skin? No, probably not, but then our skin is not black either. Yet we are denied our racial diversity because of racism in America. My grandmother is white. Am I mixed? No! In America I am black! My Great Grandparents on my Mom’s side were both Creole. Am I mixed? No! In America I am black! My Maternal Grandmother was Indian. Am I mixed? No! In America I am black! My point is that if you were to take the inhabitants of Ethiopia, the brown inhabitants of Egypt and drop them in America just 50 years ago,they would be black. Because Black in America means having one drop of Negro Blood. That means to us, who may certainly genetically be mostly Caucasian, with only a hint of Negro blood, we will always be black in American. And to us the Egyptians, Nubians, and anyone else with a drop of Negro blood is Black too.
I think this American attitude to race is part of the problem.
To most of the world someone who is 1/4 black isn’t black. Even my mixed race family members don’t get called black in England. You have to be mostly African in ancestry to be called black in Europe. And we’re more used to seeing Indians, who can be very dark but all Caucasian. So when we see a dark skin most Europeans don’t think ‘black’, there’s a range of possibilities.
Most mummy studies show that Northern Egyptians are pretty much all Eurasian, with very little black African ancestry in them. It’s only the Southern ones that show up with a lot of ‘black’ ancestry. They would be certainly called black by American standards, but then most of the rest of the world think American attitudes to race are a bit odd, to be honest.
In Europe it goes black – mixed race – nice lips. We think calling 1/4 African people black is a bit strange. But then, we don’t have quite the same race issues as America does.
We are not black and also we are not white we are Egyptian. I have a white skin, brown green eyes, dark brown hair but i dont conider my self white i am Egyptinan.
That’s pretty much how the ancient Egyptians thought of themselves too.
Mathilda, I head the largest group on myspace for ancient Egyptian enthusiasts, anthropologists, students etc. Being a proud African American and the leader of this group has brought me much aggravation and stress from both sides (Afrocentrists who claim I’m not “Black enough” and Eurocentric pro-whites who deny Black Africans their rightful place in their land and (in their own continent).
The problem they have with me is that I simply speak the truth of what WE ALL see in the rich cultural heritage for Northeast Africa… and that history is racially DIVERSE, always has been and always will be. This is why I feel your blog here is a breath of fresh air because without bias, you are not catering to the whims of some “side” in order to gain favor for your so-called race.
Let’s face it, the TRUTH about Egypt and Northeast Africa’s racially diverse cultural heritage is apparently too hard for Blacks AND Whites to handle in this country.
Reading further into the comments here I realize that America certainly is not the only country where the vast majority of people claiming to have an interest in the “Humanities” have a problem with ancient Egypt being racially diverse…
Pharaon for example claims to be Coptic yet, exhibits more racism and denial than anyone that I’ve met from that part of the world.
First, to deny that your own language came from Greece FIRST and indeginous Northeast Africa is sad enough (yes, the Coptic language fused both). Secondly, to claim that Copts never mixed with anyone, when they are a direct result of CULTURAL AND RACIAL ad-mixture (Mediterranean and Afro-Asiatic) is simply pathetic. For Pharaon, I believe you have alot to learn about your origins…
Nice to hear from you Hakat Re.
I get SO much grief (and threats on occassion) on the Ancient Egypt posts that is a real relief when I get a comment like this. I try to post fairly when I can.
I posted about 300 image (painted statues and mummies) in the ‘faces of ancient Egypt’ entry, which is about every good quality statue and mummy board there is.
I’ve also got a page with every known Egyptian mummy reconstruction on, if you haven’t found them. They are so obviously a mixed bunch..
One reconstruction is of two brothers, one’s obviously a black African, and one’s a Caucasian. I think a lot could be learned from the Egyptians on the subject of race.
Thanks Mathilda. I saw the “two brothers” statues a few years back and marveled at the realistic portrayal of these two natives from the Old Kingdom (excellent work on behalf of the sculptors).
As far as this social construct called “race,” I loathe the the term and all the myths associated with it. There never has been nor ever will be a way to determine the EXACT biological or genetic “percentage” of a given human being with any certainty.
What disturbs me the most about all of this racial scientific data is that the only thing definitive about it is that it is subjective. We supposedly have varying views/perspectives AND so-called concrete evidence from “experts” and NONE of us can agree on a simple bust or relief as to its racial identity and ancestry… Pathetic.
The concept of “race” only benefits those who sucessfully purport false historical claims of grandeur (within their ilk) for that which was never SOLELY theirs in the first damned place… HakatRe
Thank you for this post. It truly is a breath of fresh air. I am a 16-year-old who loves to study many cultures and civilizations. This is one of the most valuable posts I ever read.
I agree about the “One Drop Rule” in the Americas, mostly (U.S.) While it existed legally in the U.S. it some-what exists socially in the Caribbean. (“You are what you look like)Well both my parents are multiracials of Jamaican Nationality and claim being “black”. Jamicans are very genetically mixed and there is no racial tension there among ethnic groups. To tell the truth I am probably over 25% Indo-Dravidian, atleast 12-15% Eurasian, atleast 7 % East Asian (definetly more)and probably 50-60% or less “Black”, which can come from Negrito or Malayasian or Polynesian or Sub-Saharan African. My point is race is over-rated and we can’t judge anyone for what they look like. (The groups I had pointed out are Phenotypically “Black” and genetically “Mongloid” and where shipped to Jamaica early on by the Dutch, then Africans with different racial backgrounds from different conquered Spanish and English territories were shipped.)
But I have heard many people state that the founders of Egyptian Civilization could have Asiatic “Dravidian” (A caste of languages that differ from “Indo-European” languages or to refer to the original Indians and Pakastanians;still found in many places in the Middle-East, India and even China) with cultural influences from Sub-Sahara Africa, Ethiopia, and the Mediterranean. I have heard a great deal about the Indu Valley Civilization and Asiatic “Dravidian” foundations and influences of the Phenocians, Samarians, Khmer Civilization, and Elam. They vary in color and variety of features, and hair-type. They are quite distant from Africans in phenotype and genetically are Caucasoid. They are more genetically related to other Eurasians. They are put as Caucasiods racialy. What do you think about this? I am not sure, but some of this seems to fit. I am still pretty stompt on who were the founders of the civilization of KMT/Egypt.
Firstly, calling it Kmt is a bit inccurate, as the Egyptians generally referred to Egypt as ‘the two lands’. K-mt means black land’, the same way as dsh-t means red land. Which means ‘the black river soil, and ‘the red desert’ (yes, dhs-t is the origin of the word desert).
Having spent about a year reading up on the Neolithic and the expansion of farming…
Some elements of Egyptian culture are from the Saharan cultures that got forced to head to the Nile when the Sahara dried out. You see early mummification, and dog headed figures in the saharan rock art.
But the farming, metalwork and many other things came from West Asia, with an initial expansion point in Turkey. About 8,000 years ago farmers from the near East started moving right across North Africa, arriving in Morrocco about 7,000 years ago. The same group from Turkey expanded into North Pakistan and became the IVC (who were probably Indo European speakers, as you get IE symbols in their art).
Ok thanks Mathilda. I have read alot on Ancient Egypt. I never heard about that though. I did study about the Sahara Desert previously being different and more inhabitable just a few thousand years ago. As for the mild influence of West Africa — the dating of West African Civilizations seems to be a bit off since Europeans only made contact with Africans in the Middle-Late Ages when the Arab-Slave-Trade was going on and that was also apart of the destruction of cultures there. Most people state that present-day Egyptians are mixed with descendants of the original inhabitors, invaders such as the Greeks, Romans, and other Indo-European tribes and peoples. So culturly and gentically they are mixed. Most people only find it a stretch to say the Ancients were mixed culturly and genetically, because most Americans and others think “race-mixing” is only recent due to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade and the Arab Slave Trade and that is false. “Race-mixing” has been going on for thousands of years and even though most nations have persons of a certain phenotype and genetype, some presnt day people in the Middle-East and Asia are an example of it. To tell the truth if all this is very true than there’s alot Americans can learn from the Ancients. Besides India and Hinduism bias against darker-toned “Lower-Castes” there is a-whole-lot we can learn from THEM! WE still haven’t gotten “race” and “racial relations”! SMH.
Hey…
As you can see from my name, am Egyptian Muslim…
just couple of things about me.
~Am Egyptian not Arab.. (atleast thats what i consider myself)
~i got light brown Skin (Naturally tanned) / Brown Eyes / Black Curly Hair
~I NEVER, EVER hated Black people just because they are “black” , i NEVER hated black people in General, but ofcourse i hated some Individuals from here and there, (what i want to say that am not a racist person :P…however, i have always thought that Nubians got really good sense of Humar )
Ok, first of all am sorry about my English, it’s not that good, but i will do my best explaning my point :P.
What really kills me, that i Grew up with the love to my History (what i consider my History, The Egyptian History)…… and i have always been Happy that am Descendant of the Great Pharohs, it’s really hard to imagine what i felt,
i grew up riding horses infront of the Pyramids, travailing allover Egypt to see The monuments… you got what i mean ? I grew up with the Pride of Being an Egyptian >>>>(And no matter what happens, i will always be proud to be Egyptian )
But, Suddenly ! i realize that people are saying that am an arab ?! The people i hate Most !! ..
i really dunno why am Writting this ….. but it’s just, i had to share my thoughts and feeling with someone just to feel the releaf ……….Oh man, you can;t imagine how bad i have been feeling in the last couple years (Since i new that There is theories that Modern Egyptian are Invaders and not the descendants Of the Ancient Egyptians )
Thanks!!
And again, my apologize about my English !….and i really wrote this just, maybe someone can tell me something that makes me feel better
Very good data you have submitted, Mathilda37. Some would say I represent the african-centric point of view. I peruse your data. Some of it is outdated and abstract. How did other nations see the ancient egyptians and how did they–the egyptians–describe themselves? Cranial diversity is higher in central, west, and southern africa than all other places on earth combined. Facial features and hair textures doesn’t belong to a specific race. Defining race is the problem. We know that thin straight hair, red and blond hair, cannot be assigned to a particular races exclusively. That such features originated from darkly pigment people. I believe the out of africa theory teaches us that we are all africans but we have taken on a few mutations and adaptations to our new lands and eco-system. Diop have demostrated that thru careful scientific testing and examinations it is possible for one to determine the concentration of melanin in the ancient mummies skin and bones. He tested over hundred mummies and he found that the majority of the ancient egyptians (not all)were darkly pigment skin people. His test is the same test we use to determine race of someone who has been burned in a fire. It is a melanining test. Dna can only tell us genetic make up of a person but not the pigment of ones skin. it is possible that a white and black in USA can share closer Dna material than a black african and black american can. Before an afro-centric point of view ever existed, the ancient egyptians were white. After Diops research, the scientific community decided to say that the ancient egyptians are mixed people and race doesn’t exist. Now I am not saying that the egyptians didn’t represent a vast varity of people you have copts, persians, greeks, romans, the arabs, and ancient egyptians themselves all are egyptains. Yes they became a mixed race but never did they begin as a mixed races. Your Dna evidence doesn’t tell us what the Ancient egyptains looks like. Ancient sources are the best evidence. There is study in anthropology that being done now: biodiversity of the evolution of pigmentation. This groundbreaking study factors in the earth’s climate and temp and the tilt of the earth axis throughout the ages. From this scientific study, the people that dwelled on bothsides of the red sea 2,000 years ago were darkly pigment wooly hair people. Lighter skin people migrated in large numbers in North africa and the middle east 2,000 years ago. Discover magazine is good source to find more diversity scientific data.
Diops melanin test.. is useless, and not to be found in use or mentioned in any science journal. He described Ramses, known to be a red head Caucasian from a good forensic stdy, as having black skin (impossible technically). You should also know that human skin only ever darkens a day or so after death. The light skin tone on the mummies is a good indicaor of how they loooked in life, and their hair is not useually anything other than dark brown and typically Caucasian. There are also some very thorough studies of Egyptians by renowned froensic anthropologists (which is not a field Diop had any experience in) that describe Egyptians as being typically cucasoid and the modern Egyptians as being essentially the same
Modern Egyptians aren’t Arabs, they are genetically north Africans who are pretty specific to NE Africa. We also have a plethora of mummies that show Egyptians to be typical of modern Egyptians.. mostly North African cacasoids with a tan to bark brown skin.
I’ve got a whole slew of gentic studies that show modern North Africans haven’t had any significant amount of immigration from Europe or the near east in the past 8,000 years. The only significant populaiton influx was from black africans during Aarb slavery where 14 million Africans were dragged into North Africa and the near east (as compared to 1.5 million Europeans). There’s a good case to me made that North Africans have becme a shade darker since the Arab era started. the groups showing the most simiklairties to the ancient DNA in North Africa are all pale enough to pass as Europeans.
Pingback: Answering the Afrocentrists « Robert Lindsay
Nubians are *NOT* 60% Caucasian, don’t know where that figure came from since the article itself never states that. That study defined L1 and L2 as African and did *NOT* take into account L3, so the combined frequency of L1 and L2 in Meroitic is 40%.
Try re-reading the item with your eyes open. It actually says that.
Mathilda your arguments are so damn pathetic that it’s laughable! Especially considering the fact that you censor every damn argument that flatlines your OPINION! You talk so bad about Egyptsearch (simply because they’ve exposed these very argument for the ancient Eurocentric muck that you pulled it out of and then simply laughed you out of the forum) but Hell at least they don’t censor opposing views (or the non African origins or Ancient Egypt).The very fact that you censor so much is quite funny actually and then to see your Eurocentric followers bast in this Eurocentric Haven tips me out of my chair. It basically shows that you can’t except the reality of what modern Day anthropology is proving. Instead you base a non African origin of Egypt solely on Braces 1993 study in which he found that the Ancient Egyptians cluster closest to modern day Sub Saharan Africans such as Somalians and East African (who are ironically clustered with the Europeans and North African). But rather than accept the fact that HEY maybe my original thought was wrong about the Ancient Egyptian origins…YOU HAVE THE GOULE TO CALL EAST AFRICAN 60% CAUCASIAN, based on your faulty interpreptation of this study!
But you I doubt that this will even be considered for posting, SO I will like to make a challenge to YOU and All of the supporters for your theories to come over to Egyptsearch, present this very information and then we can again engage in this debate. On Egyptsearch we are free to post without the possibility of censorship. If you truely have the truth and real anthropology backing your claims then come on over to the Ancient EGYPTSEARCH and shut the “Afrocentrics” up with your “peer reviewed studies” and their conclusions! If you don’t except this challenge then you are simply a coward who hides the truth from her website by censoring opposing views!
As always.. a complete failure to read the piece in your haste to let off an Afro-rant.
And I usually edit you lot out because you are abusive and repetitive. Most people will take offence at being called a liar and a racist repeatedly, and I choose not to allow you to do so here. Though having an Afrocentrist call anyone a liar and a racist is the ultimate hypocrisy.
Tell Astenb and Nomorebollocks to kiss my pasty ass, BTW.
M1 and U have been in Africa and East Africa for a stunningly long time in that specific area (to the point where you refuse to acknowledge it as Eurasian in Ethiopians as it contaminates them) and that’s probably what makes up the bulk of the DNA this is picking up, along with some Neolithic input. The post also mentions that the Y chromsome pattern in the area is very different.
Instead you base a non African origin of Egypt solely on Braces 1993 study in which he found that the Ancient Egyptians cluster closest to modern day Sub Saharan Africans such as Somalians and East African (who are ironically clustered with the Europeans and North African).
WRONG!!!
Re-read it idiot. He said they showed most similarities to Europe, sub Saharans coming a long way off, even the Somalians and Ethiopans. Hanihara found the same, as did the studies of the teeth. Even Keita won’t say the Egyptians are a significantly different population, though you pretend he does. In fact, I’ve never seen any study of dynastic Egyptians that concluded they were anything other than closer to modern North Africans than anyone else – and neither have you.
Why go to Egyptsearch? You all try posting here. I’ve also enjoyed reaming ‘the Bass’ on another forum. Also, that little misquote of Brace shows you are an idiot. Read it again. If you look at the dendrogram you’ll notice Egyptians are with modern North Africans and Europeans
Click to access brace.pdf
As yet, not one of you numbnuts has come up with any explanation as to how Egyptians have mainly African Y chromsomes, with mt DNA that’s been in Africa 12,000 years, have magically changed their appearance when less than 10% of their population was added to by Arabs; many of whom date back to the Neolithic, as J1 in North Africa is about 10k old. All the time leaving corpses that measure up remarkably like modern Egyptians in every way.
Egyptsearch; always good for a laugh. Your pages on why the Gobero burials were a plot by racist white scientists and why M and R1 are African in origin were just inspirational.
What really winds you lot up is that I am repeating mainstream POVs. You really are a lot of twats.
if you look at their art, they were black, no white person could hold such a dark tan, not even George Hamilton
at minimum they were a mixed race people, like Obama they were halfers (50/50). which may explain their accomplishments;
as physical hybrid vigor &
cultural florescence
Ethiopians show about the same amount of Eurasian ancestry. Skin tones probably varied a lot. Some of the paintings and mummy hair from Nubia show there were a few blonds in the population. You still get the odd case of fair hair in modern Nubians. I’d imagine upper Nubiasn were a lot darker- like the sterotypes in the Egyptians art.
I love your site. Sometime it is tragic sometime it is funny. Ancient Egypt was so fascinating and so diverse racially. I remember going to the Louvre and looking at an ancient statue from Egypt with Asian features!!! I think all great energetic civilization are diverse because they are a beacon attracting curious and ambitious people also predatory ones (hence wars). And ancient civilization are by nature predatory too; so almost inevitably racially diverse. But I have to make a remark : the pharaohs did not build the pyramid, they commissioned them. Slaves build the pyramids. The architect and the structural engineers would be the one to be interested in and why they would obey the pharaohs. What made them the leaders? So many question, so few answers… I am half north African half European : off white skin, tightly curl brown hair, green eyes and I do not consider myself either white or black. I am more concerned by education, woman treatment in some part of the world..
Afro centrists should get a grip and concentrate on now. The past is interesting and fun but it does not determine who we are. Be proud of the achievements of African now and work to enhance them. Maybe be interested on exploiting the old continent less??? All that lovely coffee, that yummy chocolate, those blood diamonds, petrol etc, etc.. should make Africa a rich continent. So what are you doing about that?
They don’t care about the pyramid. Africans want out of poverty and wars.
First a disclaimer:
I’m Chicano; a Mexican born in the US.
I’ve been interested in 4 world civilizations since I was a kid; Ancient Egypt, Mesoamerican; Olmec/Maya/Toltec/Mexica, Tang China, Greco-Roman, so I always read up on them when I can.
I’ve been an artist since I was a kid.
I’ve had the pleasure to work with/live by/date a very diverse population.
so, let me dissect these comments & try to respond to Bothe
“I remember going to the Louvre and looking at an ancient statue from Egypt with Asian features!!!
as ground zero for the human population, Africans have the genetic diversity to display all sorts of “racial/genetic profiles”, including Asiatic looking (I worked with a cute black lady, that has almond eyes, that 1, could be in an Egyptian mural, & 2, looks like she is part east Asian). Since you did not state what dynasty this statue was from, I would like to remind you that at various times after the Middle Kingdom all sorts of “foreigners” ruled Egypt; both Semitic & Indo-European peoples;
Hyksos around 1650 BC, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Turk (an exemption).
So the Asiatic resemblance is incidental/not a profound statement.
Slaves build the pyramids. The architect and the structural engineers would be the one to be interested in and why they would obey the pharaohs
slaves may have been the day laborers, but it took craftsmen to quarry & shape the stone, artists for the murals, scribes for the writings & engineers for the design/planning stage & foremen for the essentials of construction. I think they did it as part of a yearly labor tax
I am half north African half European
since you didn’t state it, we are left to guess that that N. African part is Arab? Since you’ve been to France, possibly Moroccan or Algerian?
off white skin, tightly curl brown hair, green eyes and I do not consider myself either white or black. I am more concerned by education, woman treatment in some part of the world.
me: light tan, wavy brown hair, hazel eyes (brown/ green/blue; they change color depending on what shirt I wear), 5’6″, 150lbs, college student, 25 years old, single (but looking)
(I like to date educated, strong-willed women, I definitely don’t like needy/clingy or dumb-acting women, I have a soft spot for singers though)
Afro centrists should get a grip and concentrate on now.
they are just reacting to 500 years of occupation & history thievery (after I took art history, I’ve been keen on the symbolism & process in representational art, Ancient Egyptians were black, their art says it, they called their land, KMT (the Black Land), so there may be an analogy there.
The past is interesting and fun but it does not determine who we are
I agree, but it also helps our outlook on life, having a glorious past, means that you have a chance to succeed
Be proud of the achievements of African now and work to enhance them
that is a good idea, Obama’s a start
Ancient Egyptians were black, their art says it, they called their land, KMT (the Black Land), so there may be an analogy there.
No, for the thousandth time. Take a look at the Faces of Egypt page, they didn’t depict themselves as black. Also they typically called Egypt the two lands, not Kemet. There’s a few translated texts around that read ‘I am lord of the two lands, lord of the black land (kmt) and lord of the red land (dshrt).
I’d like to point our that modern Egyptians are on average 70% native African for Y chromosomes-showing they are:
A. Not Arabs
B. Native to North Africa
In Upper Egypt they are 80% native African, but noticably not black Africans. DNA studies have shown their maternal DNA types to have been resident in north Africa Between 30k to 12k years. So essentaially you’ll have to come up with an explanation how they magically changed appearance while having native North African DNA, whilst having the mummies measure up the same as the modern population..
First, let me state why I think I am correct:
1. all the earliest human fossils have been in E. Africa 3k to 4k kilometers due south/SE from Egypt
2. the DNA evidence shows that humans originated in E. Africa, even implying that there was an African “Adam” & “Eve” (but at diff eons)
3. most theories say that diff evolved from those early Africans (diff Y & mDNA mutating over time)
4. therefor, I contend that Ancient Egyptians were black, they belonged to a genetic line that eventually gave rise to the Semitic/Hamitic branch of Caucasoids; modern Arabs/Berbers/Hebrews, that would explain their Caucasoid DNA, but black features, a point of reference, most people’s art portrayed themselves close to what they looked like (most Native Americans being an exception, the Moche being an exception to that). The Egyptians painted themselves a s black because they were. BTW, I liked your faces of Egypt, the onlyy oddballs were the Greco-Roman faces, which proves my point, thx
So essentaially you’ll have to come up with an explanation how they magically changed appearance while having native North African DNA, whilst having the mummies measure up the same as the modern population
so, I stand by this statement:
as ground zero for the human population, Africans have the genetic diversity to display all sorts of “racial/genetic profiles”, including Asiatic looking
That didn’t make sense Chago. You need to read up some on the DNA studies.
Also, their mummies show they are essentially the same as modern Egyptians in every way.
How about everyone agrees that the ancient Egyptians looked the way they portrayed themselves in their art? And they didnt need help from Arab, Nubian Persian, Greek, or Roman invaders to represent themselves.
And people will never agree whether Ancient Egyptians were black or not when you have different definitions of what black means. By American standards, Ancient Egyptians , Ethiopians, Somalis, Nubians, and even Aboriginese are all black.
I consider myself black, but when I travelled to West Africa, the locals said otherwise. Just realize that your classifactions and definitions arent universal.
Hakat Re:
Coptic Egyptian is primarily Egyptian, written using the Greek alphabet plus a few letters derived from Demotic. There are a number of Greek words, but most of the vocabulary is Egyptian, the grammar is Egyptian, and the syntax is Egyptian.
see http://www.metalog.org/files/plum.html
and
http://www.metalog.org
for Coptic grammar.
Be Well,
Bob Griffin
PS Just passing through, great site though.
Well thanks, Bob.
Afrocentrism… initially I received it very open-mindedly, as I have always been pro-civil rights, anti-racist and all that. I read about black Olmecs and all that and even openmindedly entertained the possibility.
However, after a graduate education in anthropology, I reexamined all of this stuff in the light of the scientific evidence of which I was aware and found that afrocentrism is rather than a remedy to historic Eurocentric racism, a mirror-image of it, or rather a photographic negative of it. Flip the colors, and BLACKS created all of civilization, were EVERYWHERE on earth, etc.
Well, I’m preaching to the choir in here where there are many anthropologists, I suppose.
The important point I want to make is that this afrocentric (I call it Afronazi, but never mind) racism is widespread, has insinuated itself even into university classrooms, and is rather cleverly sold to naive young black students. And so I think what needs to be addressed is how to counter it. Like Creationism, it has negative social effect and will not disappear because of being ignored.
ENGAGE THEM! And confront them on campus! Anthropology has made great strides in eliminating its own racism, where that has existed, and anthropologists seem generally so eager to be utterly non-racist that they are accused by some of being “PC” and other such nonsense.
No more mamby-pamby approaches. Any irrational approach which gains entry into the university would be confronted. Tell them, put up or shut up. They’ve got nothing to put up, really…
Afronazi
Yep.
Well, I’m preaching to the choir in here where there are many anthropologists, I suppose.
Yes.
Qualified and publishing people need to be more vocal agianst this kind of racism (Afrocentrism). It’s shocking to a UK citizen that Americans teach this hate filled crud in their universities at all.
this is hardly shocking news…..comparing modern Nubians in Egypt to the images of Ancient Nubians artifacts and even the Nubians and the arabs of dominate Nubian decent to the South in Sudan..it’s clear Egyptian Nubians are highly mixed.
The Ancient Nubians were clearly a black people though which is whown clearly in artifacts/paintings of Ancient Nubians with dark skin and clearly black features.
The Ancient Nubians were clearly a black people though which is whown clearly in artifacts/paintings of Ancient Nubians with dark skin and clearly black features.
I often wonder. They tended to exaggerate the features of their neighbours- arabs have sterotypes hawk noses, Libyans are white as a ghost. A lot of the depictions of crowds of Nubians show a mix of skin tones. There couldn’t have been much visisble difference between an upper Egyptian and a lower Egyptian- a lot of overlap.
Although many have either mixed with arabs or become arabasized and abandoned thier Nubian roots thier still are many pure proud Nubians in Egypt
Ironically the purest of Nubians bloodwise and whom look much like the Ancient Nubians are the Northern Sudanese arabs(whom are arabasized Nubians that have abandoned thier Nubian roots/culture altogether.
http://www.sudan101.com/Jaaliyn.htm
As Mark Twain–a North American–said: People who are infatuated with their ancestors are like potatoes: their best part is in the ground.
Why argue about the ancient Egyptians, is it so hard to believe that they were part of the original Harmitic races, and they and the Somali people of the Puntland Region, share the same DNA, as a modern Puntite, I reclaimed my identity since 1998 and renamed my country Puntland region. This was made possible due to the coming of the birth of the age of Aqurius, on the 13/2/1996. MR. Pherone, you are not a true pheroe but a decendard of the shephard kings who came from the middle east, and latter on the leader Apepi was sacked fro Avaris by (Shirshore) known to the Egyptiologists as Ahmose, the ancestor of Ramses the great. He was also the uncle to (Dudmuse) Thuthmosis the first.
My name is Xida Shoba meaning Xadshepsut. I am a decendant of Rameses 11, after he disapeared from Egypt, he migrated to his original home land , the birth place of the pharaonic culture, the Land of punt, (Modern day Puntland region of Somalia). This is what we have in our legend. Therefore, we all know that the ealy Egyptian swore to the fact that their origin was from the Land of Punt, ‘Land of God’ We are the people of the two lands, not upperEgypt and lower Egypt, but Agypunt, also Agy-Tawi(Aji-Tawi). In Somali language it means Aji-Bila, in English meaning it means, the cojoint great two land.
Our true callender dates to the age of Leo, which is the start of the Pharaonic culture in the land of Punt, to it is 12973 Tebis or years. So my question is who is the true Egyptian? To day, I believe, the only true Egyptians remaining in Egypt can only be found in the Aswan Region, Thebes, and known to as as Tebai. The Aswans are also Akin to the Late Egyptian president, may god rest his soul in peace, Anwar sadat.
If anyone is interseted to know anything about the true Egyptians and their decendant, they may look at our new website, which will start soon, http://www.Xisbigajeberti.com.
Yet again, the genetics of modern Egypt make it completely impossible that modern Egyptians are some kind of historical immgrants. they have more specifically African male ancestry than than Cameroon and half of the Sudan.
Yes, the Egyptians actually wrote that places in asia were in Punt- so claiming punt was in africa is a non starter.
that study that you posted is talking about merotic nubians of lower nubia,and lower nubia is not all of nubia.
merotic nubia is a period in late ancient times.so mixing with outsiders took place during the time of rome and meriotic kush in lower nubia.
central and southern nubians did not mix with others.second the some of the noba mixed with outsiders during this time,but some noba did not in lower nubia as well. noba in southern and centrla nubia did not and kushite nubians did not either.
since most of the population of nubians lived in southern and central nubia and in the sudan further south.most nubians even during ancient times and medieval times where unmixed black africans. this is a fact.
the rulers of nubia were of southern nubian origin anyway and came from the noba hills.
go see some pictures of hill nubians in the noba hills and the arabized nubians of the sudan and you will get a idea how nubians basically look in the past and as whole still today.
someone post a link above anout the arabized nubians,and most of them are still unmixed black africans.
most of the modern nubians in egypt are mixed or have some form of mixture.most of the nubian speakers in sudan are still unmixed,but there is alot that have some form of mixture too,but most in sudan are unmixed blacks and clearly have negriod features.arabized nubians in the sudan as awhole are more pure on average and so are the hill nubians and nubians of darfur i think.ther are nubians living in chad and nigeria and other areas in africa as will like kenya southern africa,etc.
remember the kushites are southern nuians in origin,they are not lower nubians.lower nubians were unmixed blacks as whole too before late meriotic times.
lower nubians in early meritoc times and middle meritioc times did not mixed as a whole either.
t seems folks would not really know this if they do not study african history in the right way,or if they know they will just dismissed the true facts i have just mention above here.
facts- ancient nubians varied,but they look black.
southern nubians and central nubians as whole and round heads,lower nubians as a whole had long head,but these are averages.kushites mention by the romans and greeks had kinky hair,thick lips ,flat noses and on average dark skin.so did not alwans and makurians of christian nubia.
these are facts.
by the way most modern day ethiopians are not mixed,and look at southern ethiopians as well,those blacks there do not have any admixture.
Well, DNA has told researchers over and over that East africans are about 40% near Eastern in ancestry. Skin colour is adaptive to light, its not a good guide to just look at their skin tone.
Mummies were reserved for the rich. Were they not? If America was ancient Egypt and if we did studies similar to this one, based on mummies, we would be incorrect, for mummies are reserved for the rich and most rich Americans are white.
I am not an afrocentrist; I just *need* to reason things out before I decide on believing them.
`id
The mummy mt DNA is pretty much the same then as now- that the Nubian mummies seem to be about 60% Eurasian maternally-the same as modern Lower Nubians- isn’t exactly a surprise.
That still has holes, mathilda. For now, I’ll see your stance as plausible.
`id
I’m sorry but I do think the results of this study are wrong to many mainstream organizations have described the ancient Nubians as black.
If what you are saying is correct and the Nubians were not be black but white why dont you file a law suit against the many mainstream organizations that say they are black starting with nationalgeographic
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/black-pharaohs/robert-draper-text/3
I’m sorry i think they were black.
Love your blog
‘Black’ can have a lot of near Eastern ancestry in it- modern Ethiopians and Somalis have about 40% Eurasian maternal ancestry. The 60% non African maternal DNA for Nubians is what you’d expect, and tallies with upper Egyptians DNA samples from 2,000 years ago..
Ii’ve got a quote from antiquity that describes Nubians as half Ethiopians on another page, darker than Egyptians but lighter than Ethiopians.
I’m glad you like the blog.
I’m wondering if I’m descended from Central Saharan peoples, what does this mean? Who were the Central Saharan peoples? I don’t see any history regarding these peoples.
Central Saharan peoples were mainly of Negroid ancestry, ceramic using and quite likely speaking Nilo Saharan languages. They were pre historic.